Robbing Peter to give to Paul

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by dymonite, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. dymonite

    dymonite Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I want to get into organic farming methods but I have a nagging philosophical question that won't go away. I can see that applying energy intensive chemical methods of inorganic fertiliser is an unsustainable system but can't the same argument be applied to organic nutrient sources.

    Let us take the situation where your own a piece of bare land that is deficient in one or more macro or micronutrients. Your intention is to build up the soil structure, organic content and nutritional value of the soil. If one takes an organic approach then you are obligated to import various quantities of various products. These may include manures, crop residues, sea-bearing vegetation and mineral dust. The nutrients contained within will need to be removed from an external system. How will these be replenished?

    I will give an example. A crop is grown on fertile soil extracting the nutrients contained within the soil. A grazing animal eats the crop and uses the nutrients for growth and development (locking it up in its body structure). A portion of these nutrient are excreted as waste. The owner collects the nutrient-containing manure and exports it to a local organic grower. The law of economics and conservation suggests this cannot continue indefinitely. Eventually the original site is robbed of its nutrient content (unless it also obtains nutrient sources from another location).

    I have heard mentioned that there are a number of nutrients already within a local system which can be accessed deeper in the subsoil by certain plants e.g. comfrey. Are these plant 'foragers' able to extract sufficient nutrients to replenish the upper layers? Is it possible that even in the most of barren of soils there are enough nutrients that can lifted up out to make the area self-sustaining.

    At the moment it doesn't quite add up.
     
  2. buff orpington

    buff orpington Junior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    the best fertiliser is the footsteps of the gardener, keep doin your homework
     
  3. j_cornelissen

    j_cornelissen Junior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    the bit you forget about is called photosynthesis, where CO2 from the air is fixed as sugars, i.e. plant material. The rumour goes we have more CO2 in the air than ever.
     
  4. pumpkin

    pumpkin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2009
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    There are always potential problems when importing organic material from outside unless you go and check out the suppliers operation and see for yourself.

    I am not sure how big your land is but you can always grow a large green manure crop (from certified untreated seeds) and dig it in, keep some animals yourself for manure including chickens - then you will also have eggs (and meat if you wish). Comfrey, seaweed broths are always good - bung it in a bin of water and let it brew like tea for a while, dilute and spray.

    There is a biodynamic organisation that you can buy hoof and horn fertiliser from or you many have access to an organic/biodynamic farm.

    Good luck with your project.
     
  5. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    Yep, one way of producing organically is by using the same brain-dead methods (monoculture, ploughing, etc) but just substituting organic inputs. Eg. instead of urea, manure. Arguably, just as unsustainable as conventional methods... maybe even less sustainable since organic inputs are typically less rich so more effort/fossil fuels are needed to get enough of the nutrient onto your land.

    BUT, holistic/biological organic methods include bringing the soil back to life and essentially cultivating fertility. With fungi and bacteria going gangbusters in your soil, you have armies of microscopic critters mining the soil and making previously unavailable nutrients available to plants, and fixing nitrogen from the air. Not to mention other improvements like water retention, pH, salinity... soil quality can actually improve over time.

    So proper organic methods should be more sustainable because they eventually require fewer trucked-in inputs, but your soil is still being 'mined'.

    The answer to that is to make sure those nutrients return to the soil (eg. composted humanure) instead of being flushed into the ocean. Then the only thing we're taking from the soil is the energy we use to run around, which I'm pretty confident nature can provide for!

    So yes, any organic methods that deplete anything are by definition not infinitely sustainable, but maybe our goal is to have methods that are sustainable over 200-years, versus our current methods which seem to be crashing as we speak.

    If its the fossil fuels usage you're most worried about being unsustainable with an organic production method, one argument is that improving soil fertility long term (ie. organically, biologically) is a good use of our remaining fossil fuels.

    And any method, no matter how 'sustainable' can be taken to an extreme intensity of production so that it becomes unsustainable - intensity possibly forced by an oversized population (or a population of oversized individuals!) but that's a different thread.
     
  6. dymonite

    dymonite Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    There are atmospheric source - carbohydrates from CO2, organic nitrogen and proteins from N2 and H20 from the clouds. But what about the macronutrients - potassium and phosphorus. And the micronutrients - iron, cobalt, chromium, copper, iodine, manganese, selenium, zinc and molybdenum etc

    Where do these come from if you don't any in your own soil.


    Where are these nutrients that are 'unavailable'? Locked up in other unusable compounds or hidden deep in the subsoil? Is it possible that the soil is so denuded that no amount of biological activity will 'find' nutrients to bring into action. Can you even start a green manure crop or 'soil-miners' (or bring in other microbes) if you don't even have the basic ingredients 'available' to begin with?

    What are the minimal inputs that need to be brought in for the worst case scenario?
     
  7. dymonite

    dymonite Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    Hopefully we have closed the loop on that one. Our Biolytix wastewater system is going to provide a continuous source of liquid fertiliser to the fruit trees we planted. We eat the fruit, poop, it gets broken down, then we feed the trees again. As long we don't recycle the live coliforms - that won't be good.

    What are the known safe and unsafe ways of managing humanure?

    To me the only true 'free sources' available to everyone are - sun, wind, water (which includes hydrogen), oxygen, carbon dioxide and nitrogen. The other things are available in varying quantities depending on geography. We either have to forage for them or concentrate them into high enough quantities to be useable.
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    what gbell,

    says about the humanure thingy not many permaculturist realy get their head into gear on this one it is all part of the recycle process needed to improve and maintain your soils.

    of course initially when you buy a degraded piece of real estate there is lots of imput, so no good working economics or carbon creation pollution that could be caused. spoilt grass and lucerne hays are going to be a major requirement for some time i'd suggest especially if you property is not realy large enouhg for you to create some of your own mulch. for raised veg' gwoing areas you might look at bringing in spent mushroom compost if you have a mushy farm not faraway. most of what you are going to use has already been created you just need to move it from there to your place. we had a small dairy farmere handfull or 2 of cows and he had good yard manure but it is one heck of a job collecting 6'X4' box trailer loads and spreading, for me the hay bales did the trick easier. even sugar cane mulch has usefull nutrients in it.

    then i would suggest direct use of your kitchen scraps into the garden they are a small part but very necessary cut out the worm farm. naturally when you get material from another source you have no say on how it was grown but if you go that way i'd suggest you might as well not go there. we raked with permission a few trailer loads of slashed sceteria from behind a servo up here we got lots of almost humus from years of slashing and mulching in the haul it all helps even from where their septic water had accumulated from over saturated leech fields. also use any road kill you can get hold of.

    len
     
  9. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    yes but to a far lesser degree and ideally only until set up perhaps with the exception of a trip to the beach occasionally.
     
  10. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    As far as I know, the definitive resource is still The Humanure Handbook available at that link in full, or order the book from the author's main website - its worth having on your bookshelf. Short version: Compost it for 2 years.
     
  11. dymonite

    dymonite Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    and make sure it gets hot!

    (I downloaded earlier today).
     
  12. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,251
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    If you start with poor soil and don't bring anything in from outside, you're probably still going to have poor soil.

    If you have good soil and remove nutrients from it in the form of crops and don't replace them, you will eventually have poor soil.

    But once you have good microbial action going in the soil, you can often raise the levels of phosphorus, potassium and certain other mineral because those minerals are often in the soil, but until the microbial activity is in place, they just aren't available in a form the plants can use.

    Yes, you usually have to bring in some external materials, and Yes, most of them have to be mined somewhere in the beginning. You can't make good soil out of nothing. And you can't make it with just compost (usually), either. That's like you trying to live a long life without food because you don't want to take in outside resources.

    Good management of the resources you bring in will help to limit the resources you have to bring in.
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

    Joined:
    May 14, 2004
    Messages:
    3,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    dymonite,

    buy a nature-loo composting toilet, versatile and simple all teh best attributes for a good perma' system.

    https://www.nature-loo.com/

    think outside the square/box whatever, we enjoyed ours when we had one, we used composting worms in it instead of buying enzyme but that choice is yours, your best choice is n/l or something out of the humanure book the shavings bucket not so sure about using saw dust as such it can pack down. initially we simply buried ours each week about .5 meter deep and did it in rows along the contours and then planted our pawpaws over them. ok a little bit of work with n'l come empty time but this only happened for us about every 7 months wouod suggest that for any user using worms. we didn't connect the drain as the fluid never got to that level, and most of that was from incidental urine and worm wee, so we gathered that as well. we used a bucket for weeing in so we ran basically dry bins (for visitors we didn't put this restriction on).

    those who where at first squeemish soon got over it as the toilet looked the same without a button to push and there was no smell.

    we had enough wind to use a spinner turbine for venting (no power needed ever) painting the top black will also help to draw air out.

    len
     
  14. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,573
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    I often look at all the greenwaste at the local tip. A shredder and a few hours would create heaps of organic matter with no depletion from any area (that wasn't intended - tree prunning etc).

    Lawn clippings
    Barn and stable waste etc.

    These things don't deplete an area.

    In my opinion Soil bacteria and beasties will repair a soils mineral levels over time. Green manure crops and onsite waste will provide ongoing nutrition. Together with humanure, onsite animal waste etc..,
     
  15. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2005
    Messages:
    665
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    the biggest component of the organic way of growing and consuming things is the feel good factor.

    that over rides any concerns about the energy output, the cost, the nutritional value

    seems to me a lot of those compaints about organic being poor in nutrition or poor cost effectively come from the same lobby group who attacked michele obama for putting in an organic veggie patch at the white house

    intersting that the Professor Jon Ayres, who was then chairman of the Advisory Committee on Pesticides and is still, eats organic food. Now why would that be? (thats stolen from ozgrow.com and written by Fran https://www.ozgrow.com/viewtopic.php?f=3 ... 4&start=15 )

    https://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2006/ma ... money.food
     
  16. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    This thread could be titled sharing the surplus. I would propose that robbing peter to pay paul would not be considered permaculture. 8)
     
  17. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,251
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    "I would propose that robbing peter to pay paul would not be considered permaculture."

    So, if your soil is deficient or totally lacking calcium, boron and sulfur, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE tell us how to correct it without bringing it in from somewhere else.

    If you have an answer, the world REALLY needs to know. PLEASE!
     
  18. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    I am saying that in my idealistic world that someone else's surplus calcium, boron and sulfur, could be responsibly shared or traded and yes imported. ie it is not robbing.
     
  19. dymonite

    dymonite Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2009
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    But is there that much love to share around. Should some places be considered too far gone to salvage or would consume a disproportionate amount of resources to makes self-sustaining.
     
  20. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2007
    Messages:
    727
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Re: Robbing Peter to give to Paul

    There is in my garden :D
    salvage what? Yes I think far too many people do far too much for the wrong reasons ,me included.
     

Share This Page

-->