New life - 5 acres Wollombi

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by mutley, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. mutley

    mutley Junior Member

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    Hello All,
    My wife & kids have just bought a 5 acre bush block near wollombi NSW. We one day hope to build a house on this however for now a caravan onsite is home.
    So we are comfortable for now i need some advice.The property has no power, a pit toilet & a creek.
    any advice you guys can ive me would be so much appreciated.
    The is an outsdie bath. I can get LPG gas bottles delivered there.

    MY QUESTIONS:

    1) For lighting - LPG as lamps
    2) an LPG gas fridge like a caravan type fridge.
    3) Hot water to the bath - I am hearin you can buy '10L' instant hot water units that run on as with a pump attached advertised on ebay ??
    4) LPG Heater for caravan
    Any other advice would be appreciated. Also does anyone know what sort of 'food' type plants/trees we should start plantin or future food.
    Regards
    Mutley
     
  2. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    I would try solar - electric for lighting, it's just so much easier - even if you end up with a car battery hooked up to the caravan with a $100 bunnings generator to charge it up for an hour or 2 a day. Watch out for lpg heaters inside - they do produce co2 and in a small space like a caravan... there have been a few cases of ppl not waking up.
    It might be an idea to find out at this stage how much it would cost to get power hooked up - if you have the cash then a builders pole at the front door could save you a lot of heartache - if you want to do the off - the - grid thing (as would most of us) then start to look at putting compact flouescent globes in your caravan and start doing the battery/inverter/solar /wind thing. And plant lots of stuff! - it could take 2 years to build a house and think about gardening but if you start now - windbreaks, etc then when you get there everything will be 2 years ahead! - good luck - we are going to start the same process in Tas next year, dont get down on the size of your project - divide and conquor! :)

    Hot water to the bath? - if you need hot water now then get it - if you can wait a bit longer and have plans to stay in the caravan for a while then a larger instantaneous unit may be better (would require pump) but last for 10 years or more -they can also be used for a small house (used to have one myself).
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    1) For lighting - LPG as lamps

    I agree with spring, go for solar. If you can afford it go for LEDs rather than other kind of bulbs. Have one lpg lamp as back up.

    2) an LPG gas fridge like a caravan type fridge.


    3) Hot water to the bath - I am hearin you can buy '10L' instant hot water units that run on as with a pump attached advertised on ebay ??

    Are you allowed outside fires? Build a firepit under the bath, you could have a bath today from that. Or build a solar hot water heater from black polythene pipe. Lots of plans and instructions online for that. In summer if you fill the bath it will be warm by mid afternoon (I'm guessing about your climate), you can put a sheet of glass or plastic over it too to help with that.


    4) LPG Heater for caravan

    Not only are there offgassing problems but LPG is bad for creating condensation especially in a small space. How big is your caravan? How many days a year do you need heat? I'd look first at some passive solar things like, making sure your windows are facing north, insulating the back wall (hay bales?), having good insulating curtains. Fitting a small woodburner is not that hard, but it depends on how big your caravan is.


    I think alot of this depends on how much money you have, how much you are wanting to live simply, what time frames you have in mind (living in a caravan for a year is different than 5 years) etc.



    As for planting, that depends alot on your land. I'd be immediately building composts and planting mulching crops (trees, herbs, annuals etc). Then take some time to do a permaculture observation. You want to know as much about your land as possible and over time (eg winter/summer). eg prevailing winds, sun in winter and summer, how much rain and where it runs off, what's the soil like, what animals live there, what grows there already (natives and weeds especially) etc There's a good outline of this in Rosemary Morrow's book I think. If you take time to figure out all these things you will save yourself work and time in the long run because those observations will help you decide the best places to plant things and what kinds of things you should plant.

    Put in a vege garden though, that's easy enough to move if you have to.
     
  4. Max E

    Max E Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    For hot water have a look at poly pipe in a compost pile, you will need pump or gravity feed, but you will need water pressure anyway, the compost pile does work and you can get 3-4 weeks or more of hot water and and end up with compost as a result, then use that on the garden and start again for hot water.


    regards

    Max
     
  5. permup

    permup Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Hi Mutley,

    This is the perfect time to do a permaculture design for your property. It will enable you to:

    - select the best location for your house when you build,
    - design your water systems
    - understand any earthworks that need to be done prior to planting,
    - decide on the best access routes through the property
    - work out where fencing will need to be
    - Understand any fire protection that needs to be put in place
    - Understand any wind breaks needed
    - Know the type of trees to plant
    - Decide on any livestock you may wish to incorporate etc

    Once you have a plan, you can then do little bits as time goes by, always working toward that goal. It can be a flexible plan, but if you've done your design initially, you will probably make fewer "mistakes" that you need to change later down the track.

    Give me a call if you would like to discuss this further.

    Paula Granelli
    0402064832
    www.permup.com
     
  6. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    for hot water, surely a "donkey" is the way to go. (if it's a bush block i'm guessing you have plenty of wood?)
    A "donkey" is just a drum on it's side which has a fire lit under it. A Funnel and pipe to the BOTTOM of the drum is provided at the top and a spout to the side is also welded in. To get how water out, you pour a bucket of cold water in the top.

    For a cheap start on a shower, for around $30 you can get a 12 V powered shower with little pump that you drop into a bucket of warm water.
     
  7. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi-'brother!'

    dam that is exciting!
    well done man!....the blood of the pioneer, the fierce heart of the dissenter!....look all ye upon thine works!

    I did it, except you got it easy ' a caravan ' ( a bet the wife insisted on it right :wink: )

    Solar for the lights - too easy, cheap etc. you can get a dedicated lighting kit.
    Advanced solar can be achieved in a 'piecemeal fashion', steady - steady. I'm talking a few decent panels, a regulator and some deep cycle batteries.
    I'm in favour of a 24 v system. You can get modified sine wave inverters for small quid (these do digital dievices just fine: phone, pc, radio etc.)
    Instead of going down the true sine wave inverter path ( big dollars ), think of a 24v fridge. We bought a low voltage, high efficiency "Arid" firdge which is a fine little fridge freezer for a small family. I can recommend this range.

    Hot water for baths and showers - what luxury! what excess :wink:
    a pot of hot water for a daily flannel wash. This is responsible water consumption (my view :wink: ) It is the way we went. and after 7 years of it, we look upon showers as some relic of the past. We have a bath, it remains unplumbed and sunny sundays, we might boil up the pot and have a family bath. By the time it is my turn the wife and kids have flavoured the water somewhat.

    Heating. A wood fire outside. Heating inside, nothing. Inside is for sleeping and it is nice sleeping in the cold all snuggled up.
    Combusting ,even a gas lamp will consume oxygen and lower the quality of the internal atmosphere.
    Heating and cooling are personal things. The energy required to heat or cool space is considerable. By using wool and dressing sensibly the need is minimized. That said a wood stove (outside) is a lovely thing.

    What you are doing is my favourite thing...go for it...abundance awaits.
    regards, Kimbo
     
  8. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    hello Mutley,

    i woke up this morning and about the first thing that popped into my mind was 'I wonder how 'mutleywifeandkids' went last night. I wonder if it is cold,,,I wonder where the hell is Wollombi is? :lol:

    How much in the sticks can it be with 5ac blocks?.....townsite?

    How can they 'get away' with living in a c/van in a townsite? Does the town permit camping onsite and does no 'shitter' satisfy the health by -laws, etc.

    No doubt there are simple answers to these questions; i'm just fingers crossed that oversight is not one of them :)

    what is next door? what is the soil like? your creek, is it permenant, is it fresh, is it clean, can you dig it out to create a pond? (slavver slavver drool)

    Mutley, when we did it, (pregnant wife and couple of teenage boys), we had 135 ac., in the sticks, no townsite rules, zoned rural and we still hid for the first 2 years. When the local government had got arround to sussing us out, the baby was 2 years old! (and still they had a go!)- the shire through its local building inspector started to remind us of our illegality. So we built an approved sewerage system, got a certificate in the 'shitter' to prove it and we are left alone just one of many
    running on the threads of social verification...

    I'm making cheese today, lots of cheese_get a jersey cow mate, slow food and the good life follow the acquisition of a dairy beast. (David and Gerda Foster "A year of Slow Food")...inspirational when your getting down with it all.

    regards, Kimbo
     
  9. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    hello those engaged in Mutley's Thread....and what a lively jaunt it is with 'players' fairly flooding to the declaration by our man Mutley that he is camping on his dirt, his sacred site.

    Now I asK you, if Mutley had declared that armed with his new Permaculture vision he is hitting a nice little 3 by 2 with carport in some burb, would it attract the 'help'?.........ofcourse not , because no one gives a rats arse about that sort of norm.

    But picturing our man and his stalwart woman ( clearly a bastion of womanhood ), doing their thing brings it out in those ,,,those,,,,mmm , what are these people that flock to buoy up what they perceive as "one of their own".

    I venture to the edge once again,,, :lol:
    regards, Kimbo
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Speak for yourself mate :p

    I lived in the suburbs for 15 years doing permaculture for alot of that time.
     
  11. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Hey relax max - i think most people in chat rooms/ forums play the part of half voyeur, half enthusiast - i want what they have so i am curious, then i want them to succeed so naturally i want to help. Being in a caravan, with no grid power or water i sympathise with this scene as do others so of course we flock to help - a friend in need n that sort of stuff. More need than someone in a 3 by 2 - a measured response - so what do you expect?....
     
  12. mutley

    mutley Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Thank you guys for your replies esp Kimbo - hunger is the best sauce !!!
    Life is great & presenting some great challenges.
    Have most of you guys done permaculture courses or self taught or both ?
    The caravan is getting comfy & we have decided to live like this for a while so as we can watch all the seasons before we venture on to build something. Deciding what that will be- who knows ?
    At the moment I am trying to workout some plantings for the futue.

    Stay well all - life is not a dress rehersal
    Mutley & Fam
     
  13. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    See Guys, Mutley knows where the good oil is :lol:

    g'day adventurers,
    on topic Permaculture,,, a favourite of mine :D
    I paid, I did my designers cert.,I practised Permaculture avidly in the burbs, and years went by,,,and the world got worse...and the burbs got worse,,,and that is when all my Permaculture came together,,,saving the planet comes as quickly as people save themselves,,,
    armed with a Permaculture Designer's Eye, I simply did my 'energy audits', considered 'environmental footprint', thought long and hard about a society so geared to excessive consumption and my place in it....

    life got a whole lot more real and less complicated when I wasn't part of the problem. Mind you it has taken years to get it reasonably right. Years learning the new consumptive practises which one could put forward as ethical and sustainable. Trust me on the learning. Even a player looking for the answers can have a job 'swallowing ' them. You can see why most thinkers avoid the experience behind veils of sanity.

    Watching the seasons is good. It is the hardest part of Permaculture sometimes, patience,,,letting the site reveal itself....then again,
    you plant the local pioneers.
    That kinda goes without saying-
    nuke the site with your legumous pioneers like acacias,,,then thin the stuff when you want a garden or a place for something.

    Get the seeds from down the road. Do it right and you can eat them as well ( A.victoriai, A murrayana, etc.)

    Your establishment of pioneers is one 'certainty' you can safely embark on pre design,,,,and you can't do 'the design' untill you've seen the seasons......one wonders if one can ever do 'the design' when perhaps all one does is 'a design' and that evolves to 'the design' - after all, evolution is born of failures not success.
    Go forth and fail with the knowledge that in the context of evolution, you are progressing as quickly as you fail.

    ( I tell myself this shit all the time man :wink: )

    Collect microbes and inoculate your site,,microbes are fertility. collect tins full of dirt from good places, bring them home and plant them.
    (I always stick a rabbit bone in my beard for that bit...gives it a touch of ritual)

    all the best :D
    ps where is Wollombi ?
    regards, Kimbo
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Mutley, a composting toilet is a good thing. Using alternating layers of leaves and dirt after deposits gets the microbiology in good shape. Have you checked out the book, Humanure? https://weblife.org/humanure/default.html

    This design is a good one: lots of air circulating. It's a slow process, so make the container big enough for 6 months. Then have a second container to move to, while the first one does its thing.

    This is a good design:

    https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1jSbvYcVEUI/S ... fig6_4.jpg

    ---------
    https://www.journeytoforever.org/compost_humanure.html

    I like this whole website for good ideas.

    --------

    I get a lot of hot water from coiled black plastic hose in the sun on the roof inside an insulated box. A 200-foot coil of 1/2 inch garden dripper hose puts out steaming hot water. It cools off at night, but shifting the times you take a shower is not so bad.

    The example I saw of a compost pile heated water used 400 feet of coiled hose in a compost pile that was at least 5 feet tall and 6 feet wide, and that's a heck of a pile and a lot of work for just a few weeks worth of heat. And then where do you get another pile that big right away? It's interesting, but you'll have a lot to do as it is.

    ----------

    Solar refrigeration is something I'm working on trying to use. It uses ammonia or refrigerants and condensate to create ice cubes or cold, depending on the design. Here is a good explanation:

    https://apptechdesign.org/?page_id=44

    https://www.energy-concepts.com/isaac.html

    Here's a pdf file plan, there's a link under the second message:

    https://rosscroft.com/rossbb/index.php?topic=446.0


    ------

    I also use a solar oven, this one works great. It also teaches you about how the sun changes during the day and during the seasons.

    https://www.sunoven.com/

    There are lots of plans for homemade ones.

    And if you do solar power, which is a great way to go, try not to skimp on batteries. The cheap ones last about a year, and it's frustrating because they go out slowly, so you might not even get a year. I also read that some delivery companies like Federal Express swap out batteries way before they are completely used, and sell them at a great price. That helps with their not lasting very long is not to pay much in the first place :)
     
  15. gemjill

    gemjill Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    G'day
    good on you for getting your block.
    Only a couple of observations; hope the long drop toilet isn't close to the creek, you need to move it if it is.
    Also it is amazing how fast you can clear a block of trees once you start burning them - use the wood sparingly until you can get some forest management going - i.e planting for trees for fuel.
    Camping showers are quite effective so long as you get a bit of sun, you fill it up, lay it in the sun, hang it from a tree and will do the job for a family.

    First off I'd be building a roof over your caravan - to protect from elements and to collect water
    and get/make a composting toilet.
    keep us posted with your progress
    cheers
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Be prepared for critters to invade everything. The birds love the refrigerator vent on the roof of my caravan, the birds that make mud nests choose hidden nooks and crannies, bees got into my battery compartment. I finally got the smallest-mesh wire, )here they call it hardware cloth, or window screen) to cover openings so they couldn't get in.

    And yes to the roof covering over your caravan, I don't know why they are so prone to leaking, but they are, and put enough space between it and the roof that it doesn't attract nesting birds and bats. And you are probably aware that the heat coming out of your refrigerator vent from your caravan, assuming you have one, is quite hot and can melt a plastic storage bin if it's close enough (guess how I learned that one? ha!) A vented screen box sticking out far enough so it doesn't get too hot keeps things away from it. And mice, what can you say about those little buggers? Steel wool will fill up cracks, but the larger rats will just pull it out. I use flat metal construction plates that you join 2 by 4's together with, screwed over any openings.

    Although I do make places for the birds and bats to nest elsewhere because they are excellent at eating bugs that might make you crazy, especially mosquitoes from the creek.
     
  17. mutley

    mutley Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Thank you so much for all the replies which have been so helpful.
    Funny thing life but sometimes the simple life makes you notice things that used to just go by in a wirl wind. I am meaning sunrises/ sunsets, stars , birds & just the bloody weather , i mean clouds.
    All this relating to this wonderful world of permaculture i have just discovered.
    I am reading lots & watching my kids being involved in the real grit of dirt & insect world.
    Its hard work & i have to admit im making mistakes but learning everyday.

    I am probably procrastinating to much in planning & trying not to rush decisions. Love the times my beautiful wife & i sharing a glass of red & thinking of one of those ideas that excites you so much to rush for a pen & paper so not to forget.

    Ihave also noticed reading these posts & the replies i have recieved make me feel that people that into permaculture are not only connected to nature but also to the human spirit which relates once again & makes me smile.
    Anyway I seem to have taken alot from the forum & my new friends & have not given alot yet... But i will in the future.
    I Know i have lots of work & challenges ahead & look forward to the rumble in the jungle ahead.
    Regards
    Mutley
     
  18. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    G'day mutley and fam

    Take all you need:

    "From each according to his [her] ability, to each according to his [her] need" (Marx)

    As for sitting back...
    ...good plan, my friend.

    A lot can happen in 12-18 months time.

    A few things to be 'observant' (Holmgren's first of twelve principles) of:

    Sun transects (rise, set, time, season, shadow cast)

    Frost patterns (drains, eddies and formations)

    Prevailing winds (directions, times, hot/cold)

    Water flows (runnels, sheets, direction, pooling, soaks)

    Seasonal variation in wild food, fibre, and fuel plants

    Animal patterns

    Neighbour patterns (sometimes covered in the above)

    ***Don't forget to record all of the above***

    Drink the wine, love your family, and plan for the future.

    But don't forget to enjoy the moment, too.

    Take care, Mark.

    PS: See if you can get of copy of Christopher Alexander et al's A Pattern Language (1977). I think you will find much in this tome to help inspire you.
     
  19. mutley

    mutley Junior Member

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    Re: New life - 5 acres Wollombi

    Hello All,
    Thank you all for your replies.
    The weather of late has been fantastic with some sunny days & clear nights. I am on the hunt for a kooka stove, does anyone know if they ever ran on wood ? all i seem to find are gas ones. I can get gas delivered to our property so i could still pickup a gas one if anyone knows of one for sale please let me know.
    We are still taking our time in watching the seasons & planning our land. I am reading alot and any recommended permaculture books to read would be appreciated.

    The bush this time of the year is amazing with birds, we have a platypus in our creek but have only spotted him or her once.
    Take care everyone.
    Mutley
     

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