myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by janahn, May 20, 2009.

  1. Phil Hansen

    Phil Hansen Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Buyer beware!!!
     
  2. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Hello zsssttttt,

    The system of education developed by Bill has influenced the lives of many people, perhaps millions and the number is growing. If he didnt release PC this way it would be restricted by educational buerocrats. It really is a method of teaching as old as humanity.

    It is also brilliantly free enterprise in its nature, the good get stronger and prosper, the bad may learn and prosper...perhaps.

    PC is a method of design not a lesson in how to make. It is the student who makes systems. The student must make decisions. A good teacher will provide students with the ability to think for themselves by understanding "the patterns of nature" and then how to create beneficial relationships between all of the universal components we encounter. I can fully explain PC in less than 5 minutes to any one. Then there a million recipes of application.

    Town planners go to Uni for 3 or more years. Look at the mess our cities are in. Almost as if a giddy kindergarten kid planned them. (with all due respect to children) Government agencies have since the 70's provided grants and advice for farmers to run water off their land (diversion contour banks to control erosion) perhaps good advice in its time but considering our climate what sort of farmer wants to loose water ?

    Knowledge is gained over a lifetime. A expert is simply a person who has made every possible mistake in their field of work.

    Registered Training Organisations do not accredite a PC teachers ability. I am really not sure what their role.

    Leo
     
  3. Salkeela

    Salkeela Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    ? I wasn't aware that I had been "away"!

    So from what you say the word Permaculture is probably still copyrighted to Bill Mollison (& what about David Holgrem?) ????

    Are there answers to these questions?

    I agree with zsstt about teaching. In educational establishments it is generally accepted that the teacher is qualified to at least one level higher than the courses that they teach. Tutors that enter FE (Further Education) from other professions are encouraged to complete teacher training within 2 years of starting to teach. Generally (but not everywhere) this works well, as experienced teachers give extensive help to newcomers.

    However Phil's commment "Buyer Beware" is also very true. Perhaps this is where a register of teachers (without any real bar to jump) is misleading in that it apparently gives an assurance of quality.
     
  4. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Hi salkeela,

    In this instance I think it is best for your assumption "the word Permaculture is probably still copyrighted to Bill Mollison" to be clarified.

    The word belongs to the public domain. Its copyright is extinguised. That is the reason why it failed.

    What is generally accepted in other establishments relating to education is not acceptable to Bill Mollison. Some prefer his methods. I beleive that is Bills choice, not yours. I choose to support his methods. You are free to walk to be beat of a different drum.

    It appears that you do not support Bill. Are you dis-satisfied with your PDC Certificate.

    Personally I support Mollisons vision of a world without salaried teachers. Teachers are only supported by willing students. Life long education as needed when needed.

    Would such a system suit you, or do you prefer the status quo.

    Who can teach PC is answered in the fact that copyright on the word is extinguised. Apparently they is little copyright protection on book titles.
    If you make it known that you are reselling Bills Curriculum he has control.

    Write or claim that you are selling your own curriculum or that belonging to body else, then Bill has no control. I know that he would encourage it. So if you dont like the present situation you have options.

    PDC has always from it origin meant one thing. It is a pity that some out in the free market place do not simply change the name of their course and stop trading off the reputation of Bill Mollison and the PDC he established. Its legal term is "passing off"



    Regards Leo
     
  5. Salkeela

    Salkeela Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    You misread my posts I think.

    I am entirely in support of Bill and whatever way he wants to do things - it his choice. I have no gripes with the PDC course that I did either. I enjoyed it. The materials were interesting and well put together. The tasks set could be applied equally well to any environment. (N.Ireland is rather wet compared to Australia for example!)

    However where there is a system of education, so there are also norms that most people relate to, and that is the reason that I mention general education. Bill has chosen not to follow some of those norms and that choice seems to have led you to some upset over the consequences of those choices. You seem annoyed, for example, that some individuals seem to want to honour Bill by having a gentleman's agreement on how Permaculture is taught.

    I am quite happy for Permaculture to be taught in a world without salaried teachers (keeping in mind that not everybody can afford to teach for free). I was also quite happy to honour the "gentleman's agreement" that you call a myth.

    BTW I used the word "franchise" in early posts because a better one did not seem to come to hand. I did not necessarily mean a paid-for franchise.

    Perhaps you could out line for those of us still sticking with this thread what outcome you are hoping to achieve.
     
  6. Salkeela

    Salkeela Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Did you add this as I was writing my post?

    This makes more sense to me now.

    Hey - I do think we agree really - just we are coming from different perspectives.

    Best wishes in your future Permaculture endeavours Leo. And a hat tip to Bill of course. Many years of reading and I'm still learning. :)
     
  7. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Hello Salkeela,

    no salaried teachers actually means that they would be paid a wage direct from their students. the best teachers like mollison for instance would make millions in their lifetime as he has done.

    My objective is outlined in my website https://www.janahn.com.au please note it is still under construction and not yet being publisised.

    For too long too many people in permaculture have been spreading false and misleading information regarding PC especially who can teach and who can use the word.

    I choose not to register or be accredited. We now have both sides of the fence to be wishing to be seen as accredited. Relating to knowledge and experience it is really a meaningless claim. Ultimately permaculture will win, everyone will win especially students if a true and accurate situation is known and presented. At the momement it is not.

    All of my other concerns as expressed above I intend to follow through and solve.

    The score so far is one down, lots to go. Peak body for PC in Australia my ass. The cheek of them.
     
  8. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    G'day Leo

    I take it that you are not too impressed with "town planners"?

    There are great permaculture teachers out there, and those not so great, just as it is with planners.

    My advice to anyone searching for the services/advice of either: "caveat emptor", let the buyer beware.

    Kind regards, Mark.
     
  9. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    yo ecodhardamark,

    nothing against good town planners, I suppose my point was that 20 years of schooling doesnt necessarally make you a good town planning. All the levels of control in the world will not produce good PC Designers, so why bother ?.

    Leo
     
  10. Phil Hansen

    Phil Hansen Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    I've been avoiding joining this discussion until now. Can't help myself.
    To teach PC (whether formally as Bill's PDC or other I believe is irrellevant) requires a deep understanding of land systems, an inherant and instinctual sense of design, ecology and communication. This can only come from experience, you cannot teach someone to be a good teacher. If the outcome of running a PC course is that you have your students thinking openly, freely and having the confidence to begin applying systems design to their own property, then you have succeeded. I don't think the point of PDC is to produce a world full of teachers, some one's got to be out there doing too!!! Likewise, you maybe the best permaculture designer on the planet, but if you cannot communicate with clarity how to apply theory/principles to application in a way that fresh permies can understand, you should not be teaching (just as any other discipline in life). I fully expect that potential students ask me about my background when they enrol (which some do) and I would want to know the same of any teacher to whom I was paying $1xxx for a 100-hour course. Again buyer beware!!

    Phil :mrgreen:
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    G'day again, Leo

    That's good to know.

    Likewise, I have nothing against good PC Designers (or good butchers, bakers, candlestick makers...)

    I would agree. Nor, for that matter, does 20 years of schooling necessarily make one a good PC Designer.

    Not quite sure what you mean here, Leo. Could you please clarify this point/question?

    Permaculture practitioners/teachers (good, bad or otherwise) do not have a monopoly on the design and implementation of sustainable (in every sense of the word) land use plans.

    Many people, from many different professional genres, are capable of producing (either as a whole, or as part of the whole) a quality land use/development outcome that takes into account all aspects of sustainability.

    I take on board your points about people/organisations making claims that that have no right to do so.

    However, it's a big world, and daily we are bombarded with propaganda from all fronts, and from all sorts of people with many different agendas.

    A question for you: Do we try to tackle each and every one of them in order to dispute their claims because we do not happen to agree with them?

    Much better, I believe, to just go after the few that blatantly offend our sensabilities, rather than try to take on the whole world. A pragmatic approach, perhaps?

    Perhaps this is what you are doing? Taking on a few of the worst offenders?

    However, I can not help but feel that you are trying to take on all (PC Designers/teachers, planners, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers..) that, for whatever reason, do not meet your expectations of what it means to be "good", and if this is to be the case, then I fear that you will spend the rest of your time chasing others rather than doing what you do best (perhaps); teaching and designing PC.

    Whatever the case may be, I wish you all the best in your endeavours.

    Kind regards, Mark.
     
  12. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Hello recent commemtators,

    I have an objection to the ambit use of the logo "PDC"

    It would be simply to remedy if practicioners of APT ceased to offer watered down PDC's that do not match the same PDC offer by Bill M.
    Especially that they now claim the PDC is a prerequisite to some of their courses. Nothing stops them from simply renaming their courses but it suits some to pass off that their course is a PDC when I can only conclude that what is on offer is only part of a PDC.

    Perhaps the claim "accredited permaculture training" is false and misleading because the training or knowledge base of such courses is not tested. The only conclusion that I can make on information on hand to date is that it is false and misleading.

    Bill only refers to a teacher registry but some of his registered teacher are claiming to be accredited. Perhaps they are ? but not by Bill.

    Leo
     
  13. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Phil Hansen like you I cannot help myself. Your post is so true. Let us all see some great examples of productive premaculture not endless market manipulation maintaining mediocrity. At the moment I see and hear lots of talk about theory and little half decent practice. The third world gets it right because they start knowing the doing. We don't know the doing and start with talk. Our PC is a politically correct reactivity and has little to do with really producing food.
     
  14. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    I hope this is not an aside.

    The travel industry worldwide has an acceptable TWO WEEK course for entrants to the travel industry overseen by IATA in Geneva. IATA is the International Air Transport Industry. I did this course in 1982 when I joined the industry. Now the IATA standard has never changed but look what happened after Qantas privatised in the early 90s and many individuals took redundancy packages. Many of them became 'travel teachers' on the basis that they were Qantas trained and 'experts'.

    Many many colleges etc took up this opportunity to run travel courses. It did not take long before the SHORTEST course you could get in Australia was a one year course. This was aimed straight at the $$$ requirements of the education industry and teachers and yet the industry standard is STILL a two week IATA course which can still be done by correspondence etc.

    My concern is that the TWO WEEK standard set by Mollison & Holmgren will be fluffed out to a year long course to fit someone's economic agenda. I would have no issue with any type of permie course being set up as long as the end standard was still the accredited two week course. What we saw from a travel industry perspective was poorly qualified sincere individuals confusing students as to the quality of the product they were selling. ie a year long course has got to be better than a two week course. Says who? I am not sure now as I am out of the industry but one of the world's largest successful travel industry franchises basically refused to take anyone who has one of these travel diplomas because they overcomplicated things for their customers and 'missed the point'. I knew people who had been in the industry for many years who had missed that fundamental knowledge and they never caught up.

    Permaculture studies are infinite so what length is a good course. I say TWO WEEKS and follow it up with a lifetime of practise. So who is a good permaculture teacher? Someone who has done a PDC and who can accurately pass on those fundamentals to others. That's it.

    We have a standard and all the 'accredited/patented/buzzword' stuff serves as window dressing and distraction. I dont know for certain but Mollison & Holmgren arrived at the PDC with much forethought. Thirty years down the track it is still working and certainly if changes are needed they would be the first to embrace them.

    cheers,
     
  15. Ice Czar

    Ice Czar Junior Member

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    Re: myths regarding permaculture teaching/business

    Reductio ad absurdum

    I wonder if the Cynics, Stoics, Eleatics, ect
    had this certification problem? ;P


    Philosophy is open to interpretation, "permaculture" has escaped into open source code
    just as it was a melding of ideas drawn from Odum, Yeomans, Steiner, Howard, ect ect ect and traditional practices the world over, it too will move on.

    The funny part here is that the "permaculture canon" isnt one
    its exceptionally open ended, observational, reactive, interactive
    and largely covered by the 12 principles adapted to circumstances

    "certification" will be much like in the martial arts,
    the master of my master's master was one kick ass green thumb :p

    :p :p :p
     

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