do we need rivers in Australia ?

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by janahn, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    could the environment and the publics interest be better served by impounding rainfall where it falls and only letting extreme rainfall events escape to the sea.
    results i have seen in a 650mm rainfall zone suggest so. biodiversity, including waterbirds, has increased, and protein production increase is expected to be about 5 fold. on degraded country, as this country was that i am working and developing, the increase in the biomass is yet to be acurately measured, but it certainly is in the hundred fold increase range. this can be done now legally. all that is needed is freehold land, capital, and labour. and a motive. Leo Mahon Permaculture Design Institute. Janahn Forest Biomass Project. Food Fuel Fibre
     
  2. teela

    teela Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    Isn't that already happening with the Murray/Darling rivers? The Murray mouth ceased to flow into the Sea years ago, only human intervention via dredging keeps the Murray mouth open. Of course the benefits are only to human advantages.
     
  3. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    Hi Teela, not at all , my referal is to impounding water where it falls , go outside and see what farmers are doing and you may alter your opinion.
    Leo
     
  4. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    EXTRA NEWS FLASH farmers take the flow of water from overland and from rivers, as do town folk yet more from rivers for the towns.
    once you put water into a dam in most parts of australia you loose 2m per annum from evaporation. store water in the soil with appropriate strategies and this lose is eliminated... and that is simply the start of a process that offers exponential potential...to current land use systems...the people who have made the water laws of aust. know little about permaculture.

    EEXTRA NEWS FLASH what would happen if australia impounded 1 % of it total annual rain fall into ponds and dams for permanent storage as a resource ????
     
  5. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    janahn

    Are you aware of all of the country in australia which depends on flood waters to prosper. This water does not come from the place where it is used. If everywhere upstream held it's own water we wouldn't ever have floods.
    Examples include the channel country in western queensland (think the recent life-giving floods in areas like boulia where they have had a 10 year drought), many wetlands throughout the murray darling. (eg Barmah state forrest), and even lake eyre when it floods with it's proliferation of bird life.
    I would suggest that there is net benefit from allowing the rivers to flow. For example the water often flows from an area of high average rainfall to areas of very low rainfall.

    Are you also aware of how a very large part of the country relies on river water, even just for human usage and for stock?
    What about south australia and especially adelaide? What do they do if there isn't flow to flush through the system? Heard of blue-green algae?
     
  6. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    hello pppp,

    true as you state, but what is the economic value of the channel country. bugger all. it is subsidised by the rest of the country. viz roads, schools and so on.
    perhaps we could ask, what could we use this flood water for. if it simply used to fatten a hundred thousand bullocks that may potentially turn the inland into desert over time, who benefits ? land use must be linked to water. our water use in this country is strange and unusual gto say the least.

    the simplistic proposal that i have put up above is ultimately labour intensive to achieve the highest possible yield from the least energy and exertion.
    currently we land management exerts the maximum amount of energy for a the least yield, one that is also in a state of constant decline.

    Leo mahon
     
  7. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    How would your idea benefit the native waterways biota, both plants and aniamls, that now suffer from dams etc.? Will it help the fish and turtles to expand back into their native ranges? Will it help them move along through droughts? What impact would your plan have on marine fisheries? - drought on land, drought at sea.

    I am always sceptical of economic analyses as they miss so much. We see what is immediate, directly linked and financially of benefit to us. Humans still know so little of the myriad indirect and distant links in nature. Or the long term $$ costs.

    As a general rule the native systems that exist, do so as they are resilient across time and space and against the worst extremes thrown at them. They may not be the 'most productive' at a spot in time and space nor considering what extra resources we can throw at them, but they aren't here now for no reason. They are here and now because they are the survivors, the communities that held on when others died out. I am really reluctant to see some other well-intentioned change forced on them.

    Granted store some water in the soil but stop the rivers flowing?
     
  8. ShadowWalker

    ShadowWalker Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    This has to be one of the weirdest questions I've ever seen or heard anywhere.

    First off, I agree with Luisa. An economic value can't be placed on everything. There is intrinsic value in all of life that has nothing to do with a human-created economy.

    Second, I don't know whether you took a PDC or not, but the whole idea of permaculture is to work with the environment, enriching it where possible and not contributing to its further devastation. To destroy rivers and river systems is to devastate whole ecosystems. For instance, the Murray-Darling as talked about in Michaelangelica's thread: https://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8082. is a prime example of the interference of humans in a perfectly functioning world. Watch the Catalyst episode linked in this thread. It'll knock your socks off. It's absolutely shocking what is happening.

    During the PDC course I took while I was in Australia for a year, Bill and Geoff spoke of the order of magnitude as relative to the proper placement and functioning of dams and swales. A dam properly placed in the environment is an aid to river systems, not a detriment as the megadams have repeatedly proven to be. If you own Permaculture: A Designer's Manual, I recommend reading through pages 89-93 where Bill talks about order and magnitude, also chapter 7 on Water, which includes a lot of information on dams.

    Dams and water storage in the land have a place in saving river systems. As Bill and Geoff said several times during the PDC, "It's a matter of scale."
     
  9. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    I need to clarify the design. If for instance , on a continental scale, we trapped 1% of our total rainfall in permanent storages, say 6 megalitres per 100 hectares, and stopped taking water out of rivers once it had entered the river system, the rivers would function in a similar manner to how there were prior to settlement. Humans needs could be catered for from permanent water storages, let the rivers be, or improve them by adding chinampas for instance.

    with reference to the scale of 6ml per 100 hectares , such impoundments may be greatly varied in size, form and function. however, they are not utilised for "traditional irrigation", they are a resource that provides enhanced benefits to wildlife and humans who manage them.

    My opinion is based on my own system on 40 hectares where I have permanent storage for 1.2% of my total rainfall.

    the result is a massive increase in biota, biomass, and productivity. To put this into context one must first accept that "nothing changes until we change land use"

    Regards Leo Mahon. Director Permaculture Design Institute

    PS SHADOW WALKER> coincidently what i am proposing is straight out of the PC designers manual. I am a graduate student of bill mollison. thousands of people are already doing what I am proposing. re-read my original post . never once did it suggest mega dams. to capture and store rainfall where it falls is certainly a matter of scale. a national policy supporting such a scheme would inevitably allow for smaller freehold holdings, especially in arid regions, because once you get out and work the land according to pc principles, you suddenly realise that there are few too people working far too much land. what is lacking with policy makers in this country is experience of work on the land. too often people simply refer to books and other peoples opinions.
     
  10. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    Well that makes more sense. Your thread was headed "do we need rivers in Australia?" and your first post implied stopping them all by stopping run off to them except in huge rianfall events. I would be opposed to that but your clarified design makes more sense.
     
  11. lee_kim

    lee_kim Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    interesting question. i'm like WOW when seeing this
    i think all the countries need River
    it's good for all environment.
    it's good for you directly or indirectly
    it's important part of natural mother and it's not able to replace
     
  12. janahn

    janahn Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    hi lee kim. perhaps one may also say 'water is good for the environment'
    swales r also good. as are chinampas and adjingbongs.
    australia is a very dry continent. I am doing my best to make it a little bit more wet.

    we could by design, dry the country out, or make it wet. which do you think is best.

    leo.
     
  13. kimbo.parker

    kimbo.parker Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?

    g'day Leo and all....
    I'm hip to the pan evaporation rates dilemma ( here 350mm rain: 1.5m evaporation). I am a passionate water harvester (it is my thing).
    I'm into storing water in the soil profile. I use leaky dams upslope to slowly transport water through the soil profile to holding dams down-slope (where evaporation taxes me). It takes a fair while for the water to make its journey - like most of summer! I could pump it back to the upslope leaky dams and repeat the proceedure, but the 'energy' consumption (nay price, because if I had wind energy I'd do it). Note to self -get wind energy.

    I occupy a recharge zone. It is incumbent upon me to hold the water up where it falls to avoid run off to discharge zones which exacerbates salinity issues.
    Down in the valleys the water table is way high, our groundwater is saline and old trees are die-ing. The Fed.Gov. puts signs up 'Tackling Rural Salinity' but does zip.

    I used to be vocal in blaming broad-acre farmers for the rising water table/ salinity/ dead rivers thing....I was wrong.
    A geo scientist bloke told me the rivers round our way were only marginal at the time of white settlement. They flowed (maybe) during winter but dried out to permanent ponds in summer. He reckoned that even with the increased 'run off' from cleared farm land the rivers were doomed and salinity was a for gone conclusion - apparently continued rises in the Darling Scarp made the gradient reverse! The rivers now don't drain to the ocean, they sit and ground water rises and salt is dissolved, and then serious shit happens.

    Leo,,if the rivers don't run to the sea- all that groundwater, rising water table, salinity....???? mate.
    I'm with a couple of the other respondents to this post,,,,hold up the water certainly,,but the rivers should run.........and if they evolve not to run,,,like this place,,,then a bit of creative permaculture with explosives should be called upon. I have no problem with blasting the scarp to get the rivers going again.

    regards, Kimbo
     
  14. foggyforge

    foggyforge Junior Member

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    Re: do we need rivers in Australia ?


    Hey ,Kimbo
    Be happy to contribute $ for a few sticks of Alfred Noble's invention.....to get thing's flowing again.

    " grow our food where we live ,and nature will take care of itself" wonder who said that? :D

    And another:

    "You can fix all the world's problems in a garden. . . . . .Most people don't know that"
    Regards,Bela
     

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