permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by jennacavelle, Jul 17, 2008.

  1. jennacavelle

    jennacavelle Guest

  2. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Hi Jenna

    The guys a web blogging wanker (see his self portraits) , He does not understand Permaculture and unless he did a PDC he won't, I don't think we need to lower ourselfs to his BS point of views.

    Baz
     
  3. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    jenna,

    Well done in your representation of our aims. Two things concerned me. One was the blogger's desire to dismiss a concept on the basis of 'partial reading, swotting' etc. Yet somehow they have ownership of their own perspective.

    Jenna, we do not have to 'support' permaculture, just practise it. A great way to flush these pseudo-survivalists is to mention the g..gun word. I wanna see how they survive when 500,000 of these delusional weiners wanna 'bug out and live in the hills of South Dakota''.... HAHAHA... they assume that private and govt. ownership of South Dakota is moot.

    What is realistic about permaculture is that you really should do it right where you live. What these delusional clowns do is that they can get ''allawhattheyneed'' out of one Walwart store and ''disappear'', which is hugely ludicrous', into a place that someone else never thought of. This is childish at best and abusive at worst.

    Kookism has always been a factor of society. Funny, that most of the exponents of 'bugoutism' live inside a fence of 1000 traffic lights..... hahaha and somehow this doesnt affect them.

    Rambo was the ultimate purveyor of survival movies... lmao..... He should be knighted.

    cheers,
     
  4. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    jenna,

    If you are a permie. The best thing you can do is ignore this loser. Only on the basis of his ongoing posts, he isnt looking for 'answers' just a rabid support group. In this, he doesnt need permaculture nor does any permie need to respond.

    'Most permies' is a political and social msnomer. I can search out permies and entirely find that not ONE social or political group OWNS the concept. We have as many, vegans, capitalists, agnostics, carnivores, socialists, animal rights activists, bird watchers, dope smokers, petrol heads and survivalists.

    You did right to bring this thread to us, but remember, permaculture is the sum of us, not the dogma of anyone and that includes mollison and holmgren. I have never met them but I believe they would very much agree with me on this. Save the bit of the planet you live on, save a bit more for your fellow man and lastly, survive yourself.

    ho-hum
     
  5. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    We need to be careful also not to write off people and their work on the basis of a cursory glance/limited understanding of what they do.
     
  6. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Hi all, i thought this bit summed up the dude...
    "If you are offended by what I write, or take it personally, that’s not my f****** problem. I have struggled with articulating the flaws in permaculture (which only look like flaws if your goal is to abandon civilization, not save it)." ....
    So to me this guy appears to want civilisation to end (and crash badly), me i want a sustainable future for my family - there may be some peak oil problems or mass migrations due to climate change but bugging out n heading for the hills is going to solve what in the long term. (good skills to have but no toilet)
    One thing perhaps to remember when in chat rooms is that some people are so unhappy with their lives and civilisation that they are rushing towards the end - indeed any end. This may be the case in some patches of the world where there are lots of people with guns, no food and no real thought for the future because they lack the vision and motivation.
    The people out there for which bugging out will work well probably wont be on line, the ones who are on line will be out to look tough for the ego boost and for confirmation that their tiny world is the right one (nasty arent i). :axe: (any method for a reprieve for civilisation is going to piss them off as an "end of days" is their sort of nirvana/ holy divine state thingy)
    Dont sweat it, I think we want a change in this civilisation to something that will last - not a rewilding (going feral), back to the cave, billions of people die in some starvation mad max apocalypse, rambo in the jungle until the ammo runs out and you have nothing (and no loo).
    Some of us will survive this new future better than others - this rambo wont see out the generation.
    :mrgreen:

    Damm i can go on worse than the guy who wrote this manure - sorry all.
     
  7. trippytoads

    trippytoads Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    The urban scout live in my city (Portland).

    If you see a guy living in someone's front yard eating squirrel then that would be him. His fear has driven him to a act of fantasy.

    We're all angry at how our culture has destroyed our environment. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find "natural" in our environment these days. We all want the deserted island scenario. Living in mass is a toil. When I was younger I wished that there were places left to explore where no one had trash it with concrete or rubbish. At a very young age I was studying trapping along with wilderness survival and the whole time I delighted in the thought of being able to use those skills somewhere. However we don't get to choose where along the arrow of time we live and we live in a time of consequences. The actions of our ancestors ( spanning from decades to eons ) have left us in a mess. There is no world to hunt and gather in. Not for us. There are too many of us first of all.

    Permaculturists can plainly see that we have disturbed this world so much that nature's ability to regain stability, at least the stability that we've evolved along with, is in serious question. All parts in nature will settle into a form of pattern. This is of course what we mean by nature. We are referring to that dynamic stability. The issue that we all face is whether or not our perturbed world will settle into anything we can live in. Most planets in our universe don't appear to support a dynamic system such a life. Our planet is not obligated to either.

    Forest systems need the mobility of the animals to move nutrients, spread seed, and balance competition. The world will need people to fix the issues that we've created. This is what permaculture is about. It's about restoring the homeostatic environment which all of us, by us I mean all living things, have evolved under. Permaculture principles teaches us how to see the systems that we are apart of. No other animal but us can repair what we've done.

    So forget him. He's scared. We can be motivated and work with passion as our driving force instead of fear.
     
  8. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    This guy is self-delusional. He is living in an old west fantasy land.

    He hasn't left the city. He doesn't have the skills to survive on his own. And his real gem: "So for now I need funding, which I find through donations or “tips” from readers like you..."

    People like him have absolutely NO IDEA how much land it takes to support even one person off wildlands, even in a mild-climate with good soil. The early Native Americans roamed over thousands of square miles to feed themselves, and most of the year things were pretty hard.

    This bozo lives in a country of over 300 million people, with a total land area of slightly more than 3.5 million square miles of land. And that's ALL the land, including deserts, arctic, solid rock and almost straight up and down. That means roughly 86 people per square mile, much of it that doesn't produce anything more than rocks, wild brush and snow/ice.

    Oh, wait a minute, of course he anticipates that he will be able to choose HIS square mile, and that he will be alone on it. But one square mile of land for hunting and scavenging won't support him.

    That is WHY a growing population (even in the very early days) HAD to settle down and start actively producing their own food.

    He's either got a brain fried by drugs, or was struck by lightning when he was a kid. Or maybe he's just stupid? Personally, I suspect that if we had a simultaneous financial depression and civil unrest, he would be one of the first ones to go. (But no great loss -- I doubt that he contributes much more to civilization than an endless diarrhea of words.)

    Sue
     
  9. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Anti-civilisation theorists (and some peak-oil ones too) believe that if/when a crash happens a lot of people are going to die. I'd have to say I agree with that, that if the major structures crash there simply won't be enough food to keep the population anywhere near what it is now.

    If you want to read some deeply thought-out work on the need for civilisation to end if the planet is to survive, try Derrick Jensen.
     
  10. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    My mum always said, ... Life is like a box of chocolates... you never know what your gonna get..." Until someone pointed out, i could CHOOSE the box :wink:
     
  11. Urban Scout

    Urban Scout New Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    That is completely untrue. SEE "Tending the Wild" by M. Kat Anderson, "Keeping it Living" by Nancy J. Turner.

    I'm not a "bozo" or "self-delusional."

    I have never claimed such a thing. Point to where I have said this.

    This shows a complete lack of understanding food dynamics, agriculture and population growth. SEE "Food Dynamics and Population Growth" DVD by Alan Thornmill & Daniel Quinn

    I contribute quite a bit actually. Take this article I wrote for Chain Reaction Magazine in Australia:

    https://www.foe.org.au/resources/ch...horticultural-village/?searchterm=urban scout

    I also have contributed and facilitated thousands of people to connect and teach eachother rewilding skills. I doubt I would be one of the "first" to go, and that's just obnoxious to say anyway.

    What fear? Was it my fear that led me to throw a yearly party celebrating the collapse of civilization? Was it my "fear" that lead me to write an article about why the collapse of civilization is not something to fear, but to celebrate?

    Read the rest at https://www.urbanscout.org/pessimism-vs-rewilding/

    I completely agree with this. It's obvious none of these critics even read any of my work or the conversation on this blog which ended with me saying this:

     
  12. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Welcome Urban Scout,

    To all of us here: In the interest of creating some insightful dialog (i.e. respectful sharing of ideas), I'll offer my views on the differences between rewilding and Permaculture. A diversity of ideas and concepts will allow each of us to review and evaluate our own perspectives and perhaps we'll all learn something in the sharing! :D

    I don't see the two concepts being quite so far apart as may be apparent at first glance. At a very high level, it seems to me that the idea behind rewilding is based on an intuitive or well thought-out mental leap to the conclusion that civilization as we know it today must be abolished, creating space for a return to more natural ways. Again, at a very high level, it seems that Permaculture is about seeding ideas of sustainability, a "most insidious form of sedition". From these ideas, an increasing number of humans can work through the logic to realize that the current form of civilization as we know it today is unsustainable. Further, I think that with growing awareness, we can all agree that a world population of 6.5 billion and growing is also unsustainable.

    So, I suppose that what I'm saying is that the basics of rewilding jump right to the conclusion while Permaculture is about the process of growing this awareness. The question seems to be, what means do we employ to arrive at a similar end?

    (I'm sure my quote of Bill Mollison above is not absolutely correct ... please, can someone provide the correct quotation? Thanks)
     
  13. jennacavelle

    jennacavelle Guest

    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    i'm addressing everyone on this thread -

    scout is one of the most well-thought out bloggers/analysts on the subject of rewilding as it merges with permaculture that i've engaged with. he actually shifted my understanding of how rewilding supercedes many of the gaps in permaculture. if you choose to comment on his blog, i ask that you read the thread thoroughly, from the beginning, before making blanked, baseless statements that show no background analysis of his points and what he is about. i originally posted this alert before fully doing that myself. i was at fault in that regard. as a fellow permaculturist, i can acknowledge that scouts positions pokes holes in the parts of permaculture that are incongruent with establishing balance and honor for the natural, feral world in many ways. it is my hope that you will all be willing to reflect on his points. every movement has room for evolution. furthermore, i suggest that everyone who has posted character and intellectual attacks against him might spend their time better by placing upon their eyes, a new pair of glasses. finally, i retract my suggestion that scout is bashing permaculture. rather, i think he is outlining aspects of a movement that need to be re-worked and re-understoond. jenna.
     
  14. trimnut2

    trimnut2 Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Thanks Jenna, I agree. Perhaps I may edit your above quote; "Every Movement needs room for evolution."
    I look forward to that development within PC.
     
  15. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: permaculture bashing? this needs feedback, immediately!

    Ok... i take back the bit about the Manure but i will definately choose what's behind door number 2 - permaculture gives this choice, rewilding doesn't.
    If you are really that "culture-cidal" and dedicated to these beliefs go blow up a power plant or steal a jet and fly it into some skyscrapers (old ideas work best :wink: ).
     

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