Would you buy land away from your residence?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by thepoolroom, Jun 23, 2008.

  1. hedwig

    hedwig Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    A suburban garden is a suburban garden, you grow veggies salad some chooks that's it. With or without the books of Jackie French (she even writes some could live out of window boxes) you might squeeze in but it is limited.
    I don't know why it should be that strange having a plot a bit away. In my country it was (an in the villages it sometimes still is) a usual thing. My grandfather owned several of these gardens. The where reserved for fruit trees, mostly apples for cidre and juice.
    I think you house is really huge and setting up a complete acreage and moving needs time and a lot of energy and mostly heaps of unexpected money.
    Look at the international news and you won't risk anything - I guess we're at the edge of a worldwide economical downturn. Buy your land as close as possible and as soon as possible.
     
  2. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Hedwig,

    We all do what we need to do. I bought half a property in 1985, all I need was access on the weekend. I looked after that property for 6 years until I purchased the other half.

    I grew rosella and had 20 baby water buffalo calves on agistment. Lucky, I was 25 and had no kids, so weekend work was just what we needed to keep us focused. I wouldnt advocate it for anyone else, the open air, the view were all enough at that time.

    To empathise with you, about 5 years ago, it appeared my family would finish up in Armidale, NSW and we would have been happy if that were so for all the permie reasons we understand. I considered leasing nearby land and sharing it with other folks. I got an excellent response and all I did was ask Centrelink Staff and the 2 schools my kids were at to see if there was community support. There was in a huge way. Understand, I could find the land, lease it and live with the consequences. There were many who wished to participate but did not know the extent of leasing owning farmland etc. I didnt need the money, they were happy to pay; all they needed was [permaculture] leadership.

    In your situation I would ask your local council what they could make available to you on a short-term basis, you will be surprised. Councils pay a squillion bucks a year to have vacant land slashed, mowed and poisoned. I really do believe you will get something really local [say 500m from home]. You would be amazed at what councils HAVE to look after that they REALLY DONT WANT TO. Once you understand that, ask them what is available....

    If you do... dont do animals, they need no more and no less care than children do. They need constant supervision. Easier if you farm animal at home and vegies elsewhere... :)

    Cheers,
     
  3. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    thepoolroom- offer to rent a hectare from one of the farmers - you'd have access to enough cow dung to make any dirt good for fruit and vegies
     
  4. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    I've been considering renting/leasing a corner of a paddock. You'd want a decent lease period (several years) so you can recover the effort you put into improvements, and it would suck if the owner then didn't want to renew. Maybe the occasional box of vegies would help convince them to let you stick around :).

    I'm not sure I'll go that route though. I was thinking I'd use grazing animals to keep the grass down in the areas of the property that I hadn't turned into vegie beds or orchards yet, but it sounds like you don't really want to do that if you're not around to keep an eye on them.

    I'll have to keep thinking this idea through from different angles.

    Maybe I need to buy my daughters a pony to help justify leasing a paddock :).
     
  5. jackie

    jackie Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    You can do a lot with a town block, but given the current climate if you're not looking to go into debt to do it a small parcel of land with in a short drive which could be a bike ride in the future sounds great. I'm busy reading Demetri Orlov's new book at the moment, "Reinventing Colapse" which is about the Soviet Colapse in context of what's going down in the US at the moment. Many Russians have what I think is called a dasha. They grown crops, etc just out of town and that's what kept many families going during the period of the soviet colapse.
    If it's a long term thing, buy the land, plant fruit and nut trees, water them, nurture them. Plant root crops and those needing less care, the ones you cellar over winter. Imagine an enormous pumpkin patch, potatoes, turnips, sweeds, carrots, parsnips, onions. They don't need daily care or harvesting just regular weeding, watering, mulching. Haul your harvest home or even create your root cellar on the land.
    Young trees need water, do the groundwork with manure, water and keeping the grass at bay for the first 5-7 years and the trees will be rewarding you for a lifetime to come. They do need water.
    Conisder how you will maintain the land but do do it, with young children of my own I can see the benifits of being in town. We have been fortunate enough to have 20 acres on the very edge of a town. But I see great security in not having all your eggs in one basket. Imagine a colapse/ survival situation you have a second place to reside even if it is a shed, van, tent it is also on YOUR land. Your food stores can be spread and even the Irish found potatoes good security. Much harder to steal a crop of potatoes ...
    Yes you are creating zones 2 and 3 away from your residence but whilst you have a vehicle you can get it established. Have you considered also a wood lot? As this era of cheap energy comes to an end a personal firewood supply for cooking, heating, hot water will be quite an asset.
    Thinking outside the square could be great family security or at least a wonderful experience.
    Jackie
     
  6. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    poolroom,

    In 1985 I purchased 1/2 of 75 acres with another couple. No issue there, they were really only interested in living the 'farm life' and enjoying the view. No complaints here. My complaint was that I really wanted space to run a horse for my wife, run the pooch and have chooks. Before I got the chooks I knew it was unreal to expect anyone other than I to look after the chooks. The property I purchased [which I subsequently bought outright in 1990] is 3km from home.

    I did agist water buffalo and horses on this property before I took ownership and both times the project failed. Why? Both agisters were folk who basically believed that you would be studhand, groomsman, labourer and even vet to their animals...... I DID NOT EVEN LIVE THERE. Lesson is, if you want to own animals don't even consider you can live one place and keep animals elsewhere without considerable and often untimely intervention. I saw 4 starved horses one day, at the back of a hardware store I frequented and commented that someone should throw 'those poor bastards a bale of hay'. After about 15 grunts etc the saleman admitted those horses were owned by his 'wife and kids'. I offered him free agistment on the one proviso - that he come at least once a week and at least pat the horses. Those horses near ate me out of house and home, my choice... the visits happened weekly for about 3 weeks, then monthly for about 3 months and then they just stopped. I telephoned the man and threatened him [with violence] if he didnt look after his horses. I explained I chose not to run horses 'cos I know they need care.

    Eventually, I had to threaten to turn the horses out into the verge [and 6000 acres across the road and over 1 million next door..hehehe] and he did arrive when I wasnt home, abused the living whatnot out of my wife and explained that 'they' loved their horses and had just won lotto so we were definitely the sorts of arseholes they no longer had to deal with. Faith in human nature can be misplaced. I had those 4 horses at my place for about 18 months, it cost me about $300 in feed and $185 in vet bills.

    Something to be considered is that you can grow vegies, fruit and herbs offsite and manage your animals at home and transport their contribution off-farm.

    Lots, plots, CSAs, and other urban inventions are the way to go. Local councils will often readily deed small inocuous patches of lands to any group that will care for them. That is definitely the way to go. Ask your local council what they have available for small plots this is a bit new for most councils but from what I understand all councils are looking for this sort of community enhancement.

    cheers,
     
  7. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Thanks for the comments, jackie and ho-hum.

    I think between you you've hit the nail on the head. A parcel of land away from (but not far from) my house would be great for growing low-maintenance crops and establishing fruit/nut/timber trees, but putting any kind of animals on it is asking for headaches.

    Maybe it's still an option. I'll continue to give it thought.

    I'd love to hear from anyone else who has given this a go.
     
  8. Comfrey

    Comfrey Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Hi there

    We live in a (very large) terraced house in a village, with a little patio behind where we grow herbs, a few salad veg, grapes, figs, passionfruit, strawberries. Not a lot. From a permaculture point of view, this is a mini Zone 1.
    We have a strip of agricultural land about 5 minutes walk from the house where we try to grow veg and fruit trees.
    Ok, it doesn't have vehicle access which yours would, but I have found it extremely hard work over the last 5 years.
    In fact that's how I got interested in permaculture, I realized there was a major design problem in wanting to have things like chooks and veggies too far from the back door.
    Now I'm trying to change things so they are more self-sustaining, but it's pretty hard work too carting lots of straw!!!
    We decided to help us we need to have lots of shade, maybe a play house for the kids, things that would allow us to spend the whole day there, not just the odd trip. Sometimes you have crazy weeks (the car breaks down and friends come to stay) then suddenly your veggies are very sad.
    Or simple things, you get there and realize you forgot to bring some seedlings to plant out.
    I reckon it would take a lot of very thoughtful design to make a productive "absentee" plot. Really well thought out watering and a kind of forest garden approach.
    Which doesn't mean it couldn't be a lot of fun!
    But the best fertilizer is still the gardener's shadow and all that.
    ON THE OTHER HAND, a street full of friends, family and good neighbors is pretty hard to replace.
    Best of luck.
     
  9. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    A friend of mine and her husband work from home. They wanted a place much like you do, with the same housing issues. They found a wonderful piece of land with a smaller home on it. With their offices, it was too cramped, so they decided to build an entirely separate building (it looks like a charming cedar cottage) to house their offices. It's basically just one large room with a bathroom, and a small kitchen in one corner. Doing this freed up the house to just be a house, and they found they could live there just fine, and their work area is just a very short walk away.

    Sue
     
  10. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    I understand what you are saying Poolroom. You have a set-up now which works for your family and you don't want to move, but to add-on what you can.

    I agree you do not want animals away from your house block. Animals need care and any products (eg eggs) need to be collected daily. A block, such as a council allotment, away from the house but easily accessed, would be Ok for trees and veggies.

    My situation has some similarities with you. I have a place in town. People have told me I would be better off 'realising the cash' by selling the place to developers and moving further out but I see more value staying put. I don't want to lose all I have here (bus at the door, shops nearby).

    I have 3 acres and a job and taking care of the critters when I get home after work is enough for me (chooks, geese and horses). Trees and veggies have to wait til the weekend, esp. during winter. Critters are close to the house, trees are further out and veggies will be within critter-care distance.

    Your situation is a bit different from most and more thinking is needed. Let the ideas ferment. There are good ideas here and the more you let them ferment, the better the result. Sometimes it takes a while. Don't rush. Solutions will come. I took an ugly duckling of a situation and now my place is coming along nicely, but still it has taken a while.
     
  11. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Had another thought.

    Have you heard of SPIN farming? It is a Canadian farming concept taking off. SPIN stands for Small Plot INtensive. You rent vacant front- and backyards and grow in them instead of investing capital buying land. There's a bit more to it, of course. Main capital is in a rototiller and a coolroom, but advantages are growing in town near your market and the landowners give you their organic wastes to make your compost heaps. It's a cheap way to farm in suburbia without needing your own land.

    I'm not suggesting you take up SPIN farming but rather suggest you adopt their idea of just renting any vacant yards you can find. "Rent" can be cash or it can be a share of the produce. Wouldn't work for trees, it's mainly for veggies, but you could SPIN some veggie patches around the neighbourhood and keep chooks at home. You could also be "harvesting" the landowners organic wastes as soil amendments on their site.

    Worth thinking about?
     
  12. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Thanks, Luisa, for your very thoughtful comments. You're bang on the money - we have a very good setup where we are, with just the right sized house, perfect neighbours and neighbourhood, walking distance to parks, sporting fields, schools and beach. We don't want to lose that.

    We do, however, want more land. Our block is 600 m2, but not much of that is very usable. Due to the house position on the block, the slope of the block, the solid concrete drive, retaining walls, landscaping, concreted courtyard, etc, we don't have a lot of garden space available. We also want to keep the front lawn for at least a few years, since our kids are small and need somewhere nice to play outside.

    Still, there is stuff we can do. We've got four baby chicks in a temporary brooder right now, and I'm building a chook pen for them this weekend. Our tumble-down fences are being replaced soon, and I've been preparing the soil along one of them for espaliered apple and pear trees once that's done. I'm going to plan citrus trees down one border of the front yard, an edible hedge across the front, and stonefruit up the other side of the front yard next to the driveway. Oh, and also grape vines up the balcony posts at the front of the house. I have a vegie garden bed that's going OK, and have been getting more stuff growing in containers on the concrete courtyard. I've also got compost heaps and a worm bin.

    I really believe that you shouldn't look for the next greatest thing until you're using what you already have to its fullest potential. This works for computers, digital cameras, kitchen appliances, etc as well as for land. So my current mission is to exhaust the possibilities here, and work out exactly what it is I don't have space for, and prove to myself that I really will use any additional space wisely. I can't see the point in buying a paddock to plant fruit trees if I haven't even bothered to plant any here!

    I do think a move to a house on an acreage is in our future sometime. I'm doing what I can now, for as little cash outlay as possible, to make sure I am ready when the time comes. Plus the improvements might add a little to the value of this place in the meantime :).

    I heard a podcast a little while ago about a Canadian guy that was renting peoples' backyards to grow crops in the city. He usually plants a block of just one crop in each yard (corn, tomatoes, capsicums, beans, whatever). This makes it a lot easier to handle - he knows which yards he needs to visit and which he doesn't, and only has to do one or two types of jobs (stake tomatoes, pick beans, spray, fertilise, etc) at each house, meaning he doesn't need to carry all his tools with him into every yard every day. It sounded really cool, but it's not really what I want to do. I was hoping to set up more of a long-term food forest garden type of thing along with low-maintenance perennial and annual crops, primarily just for our family's consumption.

    Like you say, this stuff is percolating away and I'm sure I'll hatch some kind of scheme some day soon.
     
  13. Comfrey

    Comfrey Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    I sure wish you luck poolroom, I think it sounds like you are on the right path now, maximize what you have got and experiment with ideas there, if nothing else it will be a preparation for when you are ready for the "Big move". I totally sympathize, I'd love to live on a an acreage, but when you see the mess my veggie garden is in, I too need to knuckle down to what I've got! When you think about it, if every little bit of spare earth is fertile and put to use, that's an awful lot of fruit and vegies...
     
  14. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Would you buy land away from your residence?

    Yeah, I'm kind of thinking I need to earn the right to own an acreage. If I had a larger property right now, I'd probably 'waste' most of it.

    It's a pity there isn't a way to grow your land size incrementally as you develop what you've got.
     

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