Profit from permaculture

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by SueinWA, Apr 6, 2008.

  1. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I am trying to clarify something that I THINK I've picked up from this forum over the last few years.

    Several people have said or inferred that there should not be profit involved with permaculture.

    If I have understood this more or less correctly, does it mean that you shouldn't make a profit by selling crops you grow using permaculture methods, or you shouldn't make a profit from teaching other people about permaculture?

    Or are my brain cells dying from too much exposure to chemicals and alien ray guns? :oops:

    Sue
     
  2. Leanne

    Leanne Junior Member

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    profit & permaculture??

    what a subject to raise! Do we have any purest amoughst us?
    I guess from my experience everyone needs to make a living, does that include a profit? I'm not sure? I know that we all need to have cash to live in this world.

    So how are permaculture ethics realised? "Care for the earth, care for people and return the surplus". Earth care -we do through conscious design of land; People care - through eating good food from that land and sharing our knowledge/wisdom. As to how the surplus (if any), which could be seen as profit,returned? Well, like I say we all need to live, could be for numerous things!

    Now my question is what is profit? Surely not just money?

    What I do know something about is that when we share with each other we are richer for it and energy exchange in whatever form it takes is profitable, it becomes contagious and eventually profit (in the form of money etc) becomes irrelavant.

    There are other things which are taught on PDC's such as setting up trusts and not-for-profit organisations to distrube money to a larger group of people. This is quiet complicated (for me) and something that I don't know enough about to get into a discussion about yet someone else may be able to contribute some clarity.
    I don't know if have answered anything here...just raised a few more questions for myself really.... Leanne
     
  3. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    This is an ongoing contentious issue... personally I don't see any problems with making money. We all need some money to survive. It's what we do (and the intent of what we do) with 'excess' that people seem to have a problem with.

    Somehow, some people think that as soon as a permaculture person makes a whole lot of money they will turn corrupt. I have more faith in people than that. I know people in permaculture who make a lot of money in other areas of their lives - they then plough that excess money back into things like setting up education centres to teach others, offers their services for free to those who can't afford full price, free consultations etc etc...

    Personally, I would like to make money so I could set up privately owned (eg cannot be interferred with by councils, and do not depend of govt grants to survive and keep the doors open) permaculture education centres and demonstrations sites.

    Being independant and not reliant on funding gives you a whole lot of freedom to move quickly and responsively to what is needed in the community (both the broader community and the permaculture community).

    If we use the ethic of fair share, and the principles of maximum yield, multi-function, multi-element, energy cycling, cooperation not competition etc etc, to manage money I don't see a problem.

    Sonya
     
  4. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Towards the new barter economy

    as the stability of the industrial economy is already dependent on continued growth-
    sooner or later, that growth pushes outside of the zone where supplies can
    be expanded at will.
    excerpt
    https://www.vaxpower.org/~isildur/barter.html

    https://www.barter.net/
    https://www.swapathome.com/
    https://www.gigafree.com/barter.html
    https://www.barternews.com/community_barter-pg1.htm

    kill the tapeworm

    In a Tapeworm Economy, a small group of insiders consolidate political and economic power at the expense of people, living things and our environment in a manner that destroys real wealth. A Tapeworm Economy is one in which it is considered acceptable to make money from doing things that cause the Popsicle Index to go down. Those who achieve money and power by driving the Popsicle Index down are considered socially acceptable, even admired. In investment terms, it is an economy with a negative return on investment. It is parasitic in nature.

    it helps to see The Tapeworm clearly and how Tapeworm political and financial interests --- both overt and covert -- are woven throughout our lives, our networks and assets.
    excerpts
    https://solari.com/learn/articles_risk.htm
     
  5. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Sue,
    I think people are right to be wary about the commercialization of permaculture. Anyone trying to get rich from permaculture is probably either deluded, or a con artist aiming to rip off other permies.I don't think that making a living from selling excess produce is bad though. I sell enough vegies to get by and fund a few new projects. Its all sold locally and it gives people a choice. Just because people sell produce does not mean they are "making a profit". Most people in this category would probably be making a loss if they paid themself a minimum wage. Provided the farming is done sustainably i don't see an ethical problem with people selling produce. Its better to barter it but you do need money for some tihings.
    The more sustainably grown produce there is on the market the better.

    I think that its better to sell produce than to sell knowledge or tours of your garden.
    ig
     
  6. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    I like this one

    prof·it

    7. to be of service or benefit.
    https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/profit


    The real game is in the overall economy
    excerpt
    https://www.nhi.org/online/issues/103/review.html
    from
    https://growthmadness.org/
    from
    https://www.corrupt.org/act/interviews/john_feeney
    from
    https://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007941.html


    You cannot buy your way to happiness. There, I said it.

    But if you are still struggling with learning that being a consumer does not make you happy, please keep reading!

    https://www.mytwodollars.com/2008/02/12/ ... s-not-you/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-dib6hS ... playnext=1
     
  7. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    I posted this question because I was wondering if there were people who were equating permaculture with religion. If you didn't do it exactly right, if you didn't wear sackcloth and ashes, and actually made enough money to pay your land payment every month, you were unholy and impure.

    To tell the truth, it sounded like some people wanted to lord it over people who weren't 'going by the rules'. Yet another unnecessary caste system.

    What would happen if the Permaculture Fairy (looking an awful lot like Bill Mollison with glittery wings) dusted his magic permie dust over all of Australia (to start), and every single person who had any inclination to grow anything, suddenly decided that poisoning the land and water and people and animals was a really bad idea? They suddenly understood that Mother Nature had the right ideas from the beginning, and they had to work with her instead of against her.

    The vegetable and fruit farmers rose en masse and demanded that all of Mollison's (and others) books be republished and made available to all interested citizens at a reasonable price. They all remineralized their soil (the mineral people making grand profits by selling at reasonable prices), and started interplanting crops and forming guilds, and deciding that as long as they were doing it this way, they would work together and try to provide the local people with as many kinds of foods as the local climate would permit. When they had excess for the area, they would be allowed to ship it to other areas, esp the ones where those particular crops couldn't grow.

    The livestock farmers all attended seminars by Pat Coleby on improving soils and pastures, eliminated crowded confined feeding of grains and put all the animals on pasture. They would carefully monitor their pastures, and move the livestock out before each pasture was eaten and tramped into oblivion. By the time the livestock were rotated back to the first pasture, it had recovered nicely and was looking very lush. They would sell their meat, milk and eggs to locals and just beyond, using the permaculture zone system.

    And suppose that in a few years, the improvement in the human diet from all these changes caused the bottom to drop out of health care, simply because it wasn't needed for anything except car accident and sports injuries?

    Now, would everyone consider this a good thing to have happened, or would there still be some sulking PPs (Permaculture Purists) out there who were moaning that all these farmers making enough to send their kids to the NPCs (New Permaculture Colleges) and art schools were just making WAAAAY too much money, so what they were doing couldn't possibly be True Permaculture?

    Sue
     
  8. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    I agree, FREE PDMs for everyone!

    I call this idea "the Swap." It's sort of a middle stage on the road to a better future, where people have accepted that something must change, but have not really gotten their heads around the idea that everything must change. Therefore, the Swap is a form of denial.

    It's an attractive fantasy -- instead of diving a Hummer, living in a McMansion and shopping at the Gap, I can drive a Prius, live in an EcoMansion and shop at Gaiam -- but it's still playing make-believe, because the systems that support and enable those choices are themselves unsustainable.
    https://www.worldchanging.com/archives/007941.html


    Co-op America’s work combines four powerful strategies:

    * Empowering individuals to make purchasing and investing choices that promote social justice and environmental sustainability;
    * Demanding an end to corporate irresponsibility through collective economic action
    * Promoting green and fair trade business principles while building the market for businesses adhering to these principles;
    * Building sustainable communities in the US and abroad.



    Learn about our programs »

    Check out our publications »

    Join Co-op America »
    https://www.coopamerica.org/about/whatwedo/index.cfm#
     
  9. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    how about a permadollar?

    Local Currency Goes Public
    https://portland.indymedia.org/en/2008/02/372340.shtml

    The possibilities with Time Dollars are endless. We urge you to support
    such programs in your region
    https://www.timebanks.org/types-of-time-banks.htm

    LOCAL CURRENCIES
    https://www.permatopia.com/money.html

    Community land trusts, worker-owned and worker-managed businesses, non-profit local banks, and regional currencies are some of the tools for building strong regional economies.
    https://www.schumachersociety.org/public ... rency.html

    Complementary Community Currency Systems and Local Exchange Networks
    https://www.transaction.net/money/community/

    There are more than 50 local-currency systems similar to BREAD in the U.S. and almost every month a new one emerges. Each of these local-currency systems contributes toward more socially and ecologically just societies.

    Local currency is good for our community. By community, I refer not to people who live in our region, but also the myriad other species and our ecosystem as a whole.

    In the name of progress, much of the world is turning away from local economies and community self-reliance. What ensues is a process of environmental destruction, labor exploitation, and cultural extinction around the world. The engine driving such devastation is known as economic globalization.
    https://www.sustainable-city.org/articles/roots.htm
     
  10. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    There's been some strange 'anti-profit' views expressed on the topic in the past on the board Sue, but I think you'll find the majority of them came from people who didn't really have much genuine knowledge about Permaculture (they're entitled to their opinion, but not really in a position to criticise a 'movement' they haven't done much research into and don't really understand).

    One past poster in particular was incensed that anybody ever made enough money (even just to cover costs) on a Permaculture book (apparently they should have given it away), or ever charged for people to do a PDC. This poster was apparently going to go and do a PDC, then teach PDC's free of charge. If indeed they ever achieve this aim, I would suggest that the reason they can financially afford to do so, is that they have first 'profited' from doing something else in life. :wink:

    Personally, I believe fair profit comes under the heading of 'returning the surplus' if you're doing good with that profit.

    However, I must say, I do find the phenomenon of established Permaculture organisations charging volunteers on their properties money for food to be a rather bizarre and (IMO) unfair circumstance. I think it devalues a person's labour if that labour is not worth at least a couple of simple meals a day, most particularly on good size properties which really shouldn't have any problem whatsoever feeding a small volunteer workforce. I know the argument is made that volunteers are learning as they go and are therefore should be happy to pay something, but if they are putting in work on a property which produces food, it seems a slap in the face if they are charged money to eat.

    I've never heard of a WWOOFer property which dealt with volunteers in that way...on the contrary, they're grateful for the labour, happy to do some teaching along the way, and overwhelmingly, really look after those who volunteer.

    Anyway, that's just my opinion on the subject.
     
  11. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    "...the phenomenon of established Permaculture organisations charging volunteers on their properties money for food to be a rather bizarre..."

    You're not joking, are you? Yes, indeed, that is very bizarre.

    I was kind of curious about the attitude, as first, some people said that you shouldn't make a profit on permaculture. Then another person comes along and points out that permaculture must not be economically and financially sustainable, because no one was doing so.

    Of course, chemical farming isn't economically or financially sustainable either, but some people prefer to overlook the heavily subsidized costs and the heavily subsidized cleanup and the heavily subsidized long-distance transportation.

    Sue
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Hi Jez and Sue and everyone. As Jez and Sue will know, I run a small organization, Maya Mountain Research Farm (MMRF), which is a registered NGO in Belize, and an active demonstration farm. Permaculture practices and ethics are a major component, though we also work on overlapping issues of poverty alleviation, food security, renewable energy, reforestation, aforestation, and overlapping into indigenous rights, and biological diversity in agriculture.

    Over the years I have seen a lot of people here say that PDCs should be free, that Bills Big Book should be free, that "making money from farming" is bad, and I disagree with all of that. Most of the people saying such things are in their 20s, still in college, and haven't tried to support themselves from farming. Farming is hard work, and learning to farm well take s a lot of time and effort. No one says mechanics should work for free, no one says teachers should not get paid. Teaching permaculture is like teaching anything. Farming is hard work.

    We have hosted three PDCs here. Two of them, MMRF made some money, the other one MMRF made nothing.

    During the course, I manage the kitchen, the water and electrical systems, coordinate the food, make coffee, and get by, every year, on 5 hours of sleep a night through the entire course. I am the last one up at night, and the first one to get up and make the fire in the morning. I am paid exactly $0 for this, but I get a deep feeling of satisfaction from the courses, it's nice to be useful. Sometimes the courses make MMRF a small amount of money. All courses are beneficial to the students.

    Few teachers can afford to teach classes and travel for free. I haven't met any! While all of the teachers we have had have been happy to provide 1-4 scholarships, we have had to fund funding for local students to participate. We have had 19 Belizeans attend PDCs here from NGOs, Ministry of Agriculture and from surrounding communities and about 25 foreign students.

    We used to host WWOOFers, but labour law in Belize is gray on that, and we have clients in the government, Ministry of Health, Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries Department and we have to observe labour law.

    We do accept volunteers, but they need to make a 1 year commitment, and apply for a volunteer visa. We have two volunteers right now who expect to be here for 18 months. Most volunteers intern for two months before they volunteer.

    We accept interns, who pay USD550 a month for food and lodging, and for learning. We devote a lot of time to teaching them, because %99 of people who come here do not arrive with the botanical literacy or skill set for this particular region to be very useful.

    It takes most interns at least a month to develop a skill set and visual literacy that is useful to the work we are doing. For me to stop what I am doing on a daily basis and focus on providing people with an education about issues of food security in the humid tropics, site analysis and design, plant guilds, microclimates and nutrient cycling, means I am not working as effectively on the farm as I could be.

    Most of our interns are college students, or students taking a gap year.. This is part of their education. By charging them a small amount for the food that we grew (planted long before they arrived), the food we buy for them (starting in the valley, down to the village, then the district, then the country, then the region) and for the lodging (which we built), they are able to get access to a very well developed farm, with comfortable housing and great food, walk away when it is over with an experience of farming in the humid tropics, and MMRF is able to provide services off of the farm, host local student groups for free.

    I have over 20 years experience of farming in the humid tropics. I have cuts on my hands, bruises, calluses, have dripped blood and sweat onto the land here, and I think my level of expertise to what we are doing here is pretty high. If someone went to school for 20 years, they would expect to be paid for their knowledge, and while I like sharing, for example we provide free classes to local students, some work exchange for PDCs to reduce cost for international students, donate food to an elderly feeding program, most of my ability to generate income is based on this land. So far, I am not on salary, perhaps someday I will be, and all of my income recently has been in consultancies and installing photovoltaic/wind hybrid battery charging systems in protected areas, which are part of my skill set that I built up living here. Keeping MMRF solvent is a big part of what I do because I believe in what MMRF is doing.

    We have had interns from the US, France, UK, Germany, Austria, Denmark, Holland, Canada, US and Australia. Most interns have been very happy, and feel we provide good value. We are, also, getting better at hosting interns as we go along, hahaha, so the one or two who that thought we were not such great hosts may have been right!

    The income from the interns goes to keep the organization afloat, is funding our vanilla project (working with 30 farmers in 10 communities). While we have received funding from various sources, the economy is in the crapper, and most of those sources have dried up. If not for paying interns, we would have to throttle back what we are doing down to almost nothing.

    So, I understand why some organizations charge for interns. Just my .02!~
     
  13. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Most real permies I've met or read about don't seem to mind people making a fair profit.

    Teachers have travel, food, accommodation and incidental costs to cover, plus the opportunity costs involved with being away from their property teaching instead of working it. There is also preparation and research time, plus follow-up communication time, all of which is time away from other activities. Many courses seem to offer payment alternatives, too, such as working in exchange for learning.

    Growers have rates to pay and other costs that can't be bartered for, so they need some kind of economic profit to stay afloat. If growers didn't sell their surplus, there'd be no locally-grown food around for townies to buy, so they'd be adding to the damage done by conventional broadscale agriculture and long-haul transport of food. Selling locally-grown food helps educate the public about this damage and provides them with a viable alternative with less impact. Every step in the right direction is, well, a step in the right direction!

    At the other end of the scale, I don't think anybody wants to see Anthony Robbins-style permaculture preachers riding into town holding $10,000-a-head PDCs complete with ra-ra fire-walking sessions.

    Personally, I'd rather see profits go to permaculture practitioners than corporate types. At least they're likely to spend it on something sustainable and worthwhile, like a solar power system or purchasing more land to work, rather than stupid unproductive stuff like Ferraris and McMansions.
     
  14. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    I want to make a living from permaculture - not only a 'living' growing my own food to live off, but I need $$ to move about in society and to buy things I can't grow myself or make myself or trade or barter.

    I think it's ridiculous to expect PDCs or the text books to be free. Why should they? Isn't the teacher's or author's knowledge worth something?

    Most PDC teachers offer one or two free places and perhaps one or two reduced price places on each PDC they run. This is fair and equitable. A lot of people argued with Geoff Lawton when he brought up money and permaculture and he offered those people free PDCs - I'd like to hear how many took him up and did it.

    For those who think it should be free, how do you expect the teachers and helpers at the free PDCs to earn money to live?

    We must value the knowledge in our permaculture community. I don't know of any pc people who want to make the millions from permaculture and heaven forbid the Anthony Robbins approach to mass marketing and selling the product. Most I think, after taking their fair share wage, would invest money back into permaculture education and information sharing (things such as this website forum) rather than hord it all away in the vault.

    If we don't value the knowledge and express this by paying for people time and energy we are making ourselves unsustainable. People will have to at some point give up free teaching to go back to work to earn money. Unless we only attract people who are independantly wealthy through other means.

    The problem seems to be people think those of us who teach permaculture and get paid for it will turn bad if we make too much money. Money is a resource just like water and energy and should be treated as such. Give people more credit! (pun intended).
     
  15. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Yes. It is worth reading :) that doesn't mean it is always worth buying though.
    I'v no problem with paying for a good book. In this case though (and i'm sure most would agree) the topic is "common sense". I consider permaculture to be simply a common sense approach to living.
    I'm uneasy paying for a book which teaches nothing more than common sense.

    As for PDCs costing money, i think thats not so bad. Although surely the prefered situation would be for people to learn them for free by doing volunteer work. Kind of a combination of woofing and a short apprenticeship.

    As i see it the aim of the permaculture movement is to help implement a wholesale change of attitude and lifestyle towards sustainability and harmony with nature. This amounts to nothing less than a revolution of sorts.
    Most other sucessful revolutions only succeded because the ideas behind them were published and distributed free to as many people as possible.
    The internet makes this so much cheaper and easier today. More books should be free online.
    just my opinion,
    IG
     
  16. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    "As i see it the aim of the permaculture movement is to help implement a wholesale change of attitude and lifestyle towards sustainability and harmony with nature. This amounts to nothing less than a revolution of sorts."

    I think many in the Permaculture movement might have this motivation, however when I did a workshop with Bill M. in NZ back in the 80's I said to him or asked him if he was working with and helping the standard Ag. Universities and Government Lands and Survey to change over to Permaculture...and the answer I got was a negative...like they had to wake up on their own and that Permaculturalists at the time had a "survivalist" mentality...like, as long as they were on the right track everyone else can go to :finga: . Well I was rather shocked at the time by the attitude...knowing that we are all in the same boat, and that the people using the chemical Ag. will ultimately impindge on the ability of anyone to do Permaculture successfully, due to the wholesale demise of ecosystems and climate.

    Pretty soon tho, as the hydrocarbon age comes to a close, everyone will be doing Permaculture.
    https://globalpublicmedia.com/crop_to_cu ... in_farming
     
  17. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    one of the founders of Permaculture, used Yeoman's Keyline principle extensively in the formulation of Permaculture concepts and the design of sustainable human settlements and organic farms.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyline_design

    P. A. Yeomans was constantly in conflict with bureaucratic orthodoxy. So no stone monuments, nor official recognition, has ever been accorded to his works. The changed and changing face of the Australian landscape however, is his immense and worthy memorial.
    https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrar ... omage.html
    from
    https://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrar ... 25toc.html

    Knowledge gained is knowledge free to use.

    Mollison has slipped into an exclusionist, or even reductionist type of thinking by avoiding the imperialist discourse. This thinking has compartmentalised, or separated significant interconnected disciplines by seeing political processes somehow, out there, but not involved in his ideal alternative of a world where they would not exist. Why then hasn’t the dominant discourse with its elite ruling class withered away, while the new tribalism establishes a new age? Why indeed. Mollison does not assess this and therefore his proposition of a political party, undeveloped, untested and lacking in policy seems naïve at the least and magical in the extreme.

    Recent history of alternative legislatures, or states, detaching or deviating from these dominant economic relationships, such as the vicious Chilean coup in 1972, or our own maligned Australian, bloodless coup in 1975, are examples of just how resistant imperialistic power arrangements have been to such radical, though legitimate electoral changes. The oneness of the system does not allow for disengagement from it. Hence the economy (the corporation) prevails before the political (the party), the latter only being the system to maintain the former.

    The whole systems approach allows for guerrilla activity and demands community, but unfortunately the whole of community is not enabled yet, because it is still constrained by the dominant paradigm of globalised capital.
    https://www.permacultureinternational.or ... rean-links

    There are many local economic structures that support economically sustainable communities
    https://www.slowmovement.com/economic_structures.php

    Since 1995, the Internet (e.g., World Wide Web and e-mail) has become an important resource and networking tool in the dissemination of permaculture information. A selection of Web sites is listed below.
    https://www.attra.org/attra-pub/perma.html
    https://www.sustainable-gardening-tips.com/
     
  18. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Corruption is so rife in the mainstream political process, that I estimate Greens and Permaculture parties will have their day sometime soon. Their mere existance will slowly change things—and when the public are totally sick of being screwed, the culture will flip over and the alternatives must be ready to run with the ball.

    "Permaculture is in essence an alternative construction to mainstream economic functions, as its innate nature is the antithesis to economic rationalism."
    This statement is backward—it is only permaculture that is rational...the exploitive-entropic economic system is anything but rational.

    An estimated 33-40% of households own guns and approximately 44-51 million Americans. personally own guns. Thus it unlikely that another holocaust or fascist-police state could come into being in America...once the people get mad enough to defend themselves, each of those guns could kill off at least a couple of mercenary civil subversive troops. There is no way you could subdue the population without some form of deliberate disease outbreak.
     
  19. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    the culture will flip over alright, but the ball may be too heavy to carry by then.


    Can plants and animals (including human beings) cope with increased exposure to the sun's ultraviolet rays?

    Their field experiments have shown that UV exposure can reduce nitrogen fixation (the incorporation of atmospheric nitrogen into ammonia), a process that makes nitrogen organically accessible. They also found that such exposure can make shrubs more vulnerable to early frosts and that it has mixed effects on plant-litter decomposition (UV-B breaks down litter photochemically, but it also kills bacteria and fungi that aid decomposition).
    https://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... 50326/pg_1

    Effects of acid rain on plant life.
    Effects of acid rain on aquatic life
    Effects on animals and birds.
    Effects on human beings
    Other effects
    https://www.essortment.com/all/acidraineffect_rqmz.htm

    Estimates suggest that nearly 1.5 billion people lack safe drinking water and that at least 5 million deaths per year can be attributed to waterborne diseases. With over 70 percent of the planet covered by oceans, people have long acted as if these very bodies of water could serve as a limitless dumping ground for wastes. Raw sewage, garbage, and oil spills have begun to overwhelm the diluting capabilities of the oceans,
    https://www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/waterpollution.htm

    If we trigger this runaway release of methane, there's no turning back. No do-overs. Once it starts, it's likely to play out all the way.

    Humans appear to be capable of emitting carbon dioxide in quantities comparable to the volcanic activity that started these chain reactions. According to the US. Geological Survey, burning fossil fuels releases more than 150 times the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by volcanoes-the equivalent of nearly 17,000 additional volcanoes the size of Hawaii's Kilauea.

    And that is the time bomb (so far) ignored.

    How likely is it that humans will cause methane burps by burning fossil fuels? No one knows. But it is somewhere between possible and likely at this point, and it becomes more likely with each passing year that we fail to act.

    So forget rising sea levels, melting ice caps, more intense storms, more floods, destruction of habitats and the extinction of polar bears. Forget warnings that global warming might turn some of the world's major agricultural areas into deserts and increase the range of tropical diseases, even though this is the stuff we're pretty sure will happen.
    https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea ... y?id=52323
    https://edtech.kennesaw.edu/web/pollute.html

    (No) Pollination Nation
    Ok, sing along with me... Let me tell you about the birds and the bees and the flowers and the trees … and a thing called .. Survival?
    https://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/br ... ation.html
     
  20. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Re: Profit from permaculture

    Yeah, I can fully understand charging in your situation Chris, I was more referring to established places in the Western world.

    Thanks for your detailed reply, always interesting to hear what you're up to over there.
     

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