"tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by ppp, Mar 14, 2008.

  1. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    Everyone is going to think I love the QLD government, which is far from the case, but anyway, they are bringing in another policy which looks good to me!

    A person with grid connected solar power will get 44 cents per kWh put into the grid (I think the normal COST per kWh is 15 cents). That means that electricity from solar, is VALUED, like it should be, as being worth around 3 times what coal power is.

    the govt website is:
    https://www.dme.qld.gov.au/Energy/solar_ ... tariff.cfm

    this should make the getting solar power more attractive, and properly reward people who have solar power and reduce their useage.. I am guessing that this should drastically reduce the "payback period" for a system.. any thoughts?
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day ppp,

    ok good point but?

    what does it cost for the consumer to install a special 2 way meter or inverter to feed their own solar power back into the grid?

    then with what power they would still use from the grid (on sunless days or evenings) deducted how many years would it take to pay for the device?

    and in the future once the majority (those who can afford it of course) are hooked on feeding the grid and the power people are paying out equal to or more than htey make from selling power, what then? the whole thing gets the plug pulled, which is the most likely course. they do need to make a profit to maintane power production for the periods of the day that don't have any sun.

    len
     
  3. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    considering there are around 4 million people in queensland , if we assume an average household size of 3 (i think it's more like 2.3) , then that is 1.3 million households (or 1.7million for 2.3 person households). We currently have around 500(~0.04%) homes with grid connected power.. I think we have a very very long way to go befroe grid-connected solar power makes up even 1% of all power used.
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    exactly what i have been trying to say ppp,

    a spit in the ocean of reality.

    to even think that long term a power co' is going to continue to pay 40c+ per kilowatt and then onsell it for 15c a kilowatt, smacks in the face of profit and loss.

    if we are going to be real about this and not deal in the pie in the sky rabbit out of the hat stuff that gov's deal in then there needs to be a big dose a reality injected.

    the first dose is it is dream time even beginning to think it will ever return you real time money, first up it has to generate enough savings so you can simply afford to replace it all say in about 25 years time (ok so what if panels can last 40 years no one is realy going to put up with technology and the slipping efficiency of the panels for that length of time).

    and buying into it because fo the big juicy carrots on offer is a poor reason indeed, the rebate is flimsy to say the least, somewhere sometime they won't be on offer. and those juicy looking carrots are most likely going to leave a rather bitter after taste later on.

    if the gov' was for real they would take the manufacture etc of renewables out of the greedy hands of the private sector, and make the whole kit and kaboodle affordable to all and include wind as well.

    len
     
  5. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with the last part of your post. It smacks of communism to me, which I can't see ever working.
     
  6. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    i think you may have over read what i said ppp?

    i thought this issue of power along with others was a fairly high on the list important issue, and after all the gov' is the people isn't it? although at times you would wonder.

    so then maybe you can put your idea into the ring on how to control profit making out of an issue like this? and ensure money goes back to development and production and not shareholder bonuses.

    wait and see what sort of mess we are going to be in once power productin and water are turned over to privatisation. certain things should remain public uitilities.

    len
     
  7. danielr

    danielr Junior Member

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    What I am curious about is, is it even possible to self sustain yourself on an average 1-2KW system ?

    The technology has been around for years but we are still seeing 60K prices for a 6KW grid connected system so not entirely self reliant, and not much has changed on the battery department. They are only just looking into highl load , long life, "non toxic" battery arrays, I cringe at the thought of having to use lead acid batteries on a standalone system.

    Things are moving really slow really due to external factors discussed, there is some new technologies now to put the silicon into windows so your whole house is generating the power, im very interested in this technology rather than panels covering everything in sight :)

    I would love to see more wider communities adopting power fed into the grid so everyone is generating power for everyone, reducing the demand at the source, better still not having to be connected to the grid to begin with.

    I think you would have to buy premium 100% green energy to validate being 'sustainable' after spending your 60K on a solar system that will only probably accomodate for half your usage :) Then really you are still reliant on utility bills and power on the grid and vulnerable to blackouts like everyone else.

    The best thing we may be able to do is lobby to push technology forward because it's not there yet and its 2008, we need much stronger and longer lasting 'non toxic' storage sources possibly batteries made of non oil derived plastics would be a bonus like from corn starch or hemp because as you start to look deeper, things to start to contradict eachother :) We also need higher wattage solar units, maybe the standalone sun grids would do a better job ? I find panels quite dinasour technology really.

    You could argue all this and just lobby to educate people on not using so much hence the demand. The average is 16-20kmh isnt it ? I still think thats astronimical but everyone is still relying on their fossil fuel gas or electric cooktops which even the induction systems run at 1.8KW each element but have a faster cooking time obviouslly.

    I'm still trying quite hard to research on reducing the wattage on my home office which i need to run for 8 hours a day, there are very low wattage computers out there running at 8W which alot of households only need really ! They arent enough for a workhorse machine only web / email / digital tv but laptops these days are efficient for other jobs.
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day daniel,

    yes as you say well i think that is how t reads you need to produce your own power use for the whole 24 hour 7 day period, then maybe feed excess back into the grid? if homes provided teir own power lie that and only drew on teh grid for those othe periods surely that is going to make a huge hole in power production on the domestic front at least?

    they are steering clear of the battery factor so hence as i see it no real advances going on, that is the main impetous to fitting grid connected solar systems, and i guiess as the push is from the solar people the wind side of things isn't even considered, all solar lobby driven.

    full sized family fridges and freezers take a lot of power as i am to understand it well at kick in time least ways. so like that example i used where a lady bought a super efficient fridge and seperate freezer costing $2k each, then used $8k of solar with batteries to drive them.

    just maybe for now we can't be too squeemish about batteries and the use of them? after all almost none of the other components are recyclable and probably just as hazardous in their production and disposal say in landfill?? lots are sourcing second had batteries already in the system to use for power storage. almost can't source second hand inverters and panels that will give good service.

    i'm not technical at all, but as you indicate would most homes realy need a 6kw system to run them? 1 & 2 kw seem basic to me and what is commonly offered to consumers.

    the big bullit might need to be bitten on efficient home design to make better use of lesser power capacity. and as pv cells need a northern exposer for good all around sun not sure how a window adaption would do that well?? be no good on southern windows at least or shaded by eaves/awnings.

    len
     
  9. dgriffith

    dgriffith Junior Member

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    My previous off-grid project had a projected usage of about 4kWhr a day. Even at that usage (and with correspondingly large amounts of panels - about $18K or so) it was quite likely that generator input would be needed for some part of the year. All-up cost would have been about $45K. Refrigeration played a large part in making the system so costly - an efficient fridge/freezer combo will easily suck 1kWhr a day in normal warm Aussie conditions. You'd probably be better off with a gas fridge (to go with your gas stove) and deal with changing the bottle every 4 months or so.

    As for batteries, I am again looking at nickel-iron cells to power the new system, probably after the first small set of lead-acid cells get a bit weary. With a life of 20+ years and relatively tame chemistry/components (nickel + iron + a potash alkaline electrolyte), they are interesting to me.

    But saying all that, anything to promote solar and increases demand is a good thing. More demand eventually leads to lower prices once manufacturers ramp up. Don't forget that the utilities won't be selling your power to other people at 15c/kWhr, they'll be selling it at whatever premium they charge for 'green' power, which helps to shorten the gap a bit.
     
  10. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Enter the biogas digester. :D
     
  11. danielr

    danielr Junior Member

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    I just got told about this aswell

    https://www.climatechange.sa.gov.au/news/news_5.htm

    So the biggest question I had is, how big and expensive would your system need to be to reach an overhead where it would be pumping power back into the grid. What I was trying to suggest for the average household solar would only cover half of their electricity so it may only be a trickle, but then they may be assuming everyone goes to work for half of the day so the only thing left idling and draining is the fridge maybe.

    People would have to seriouslly recycle all their whitegoods aswell when switching to solar I reckon, so sounds like a 100K budget maximum up front already, and doesnt sound much per Kwh in return for that 100K budget ! :D

    I could be wrong. very interested there is already better battery alternatives aswell,

    this is whaqt i read about the new battery sounds very promosing I guess ?

    https://www.unisa.edu.au/news/2007/280907.asp

    I don't see an issue with being grid attached as it does mean everyone is powering everyone, but then their is a reliance of its uptime still , and then off grid systems may need fossil fuel generator boosts still so it doesnt seem like progress for me :) Maybe generators which were fuel cell / ethanol / bio diesel powered I guess ?
     
  12. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    the thing I don't understand about this, is if you are paying 15 cents for what you 'import' and being paid 45 cents for what you 'export', if the meter measures both 'imported' and 'exported' power, doesn't that mean you only need to generate a bit over 1/3 of your night time power useage to break even?

    Or do the meters only measure TOTAL useage versus generation (meaning you need a net generation to see any gain from this policy whats-so-ever)

    Our house currently uses ~700kWh per quarter in my house with:
    - still many incandesent bulbs needing replacing
    - all electric cooking :-(
    - drilling, grinding for power tools etc
    - electric hotwater system :-(
    - very limited airconditioning.
    (when I put it like this it looks really bad :-( my excuse is that I only bought the house 18 months ago, and have a capital city sized mortgage to pay!)

    On the origin website, it estimates annual output of 1450kWh from a 1kW system.

    = ~$650 at 45 cents per kwhr (per annum)

    my useage = ~ $420 at 15 cents per kwhr (per annum)

    Does this mean that I could potentially get close to breaking even with a small 1kW system? - especially with useage reduction ?? - this DOES NOT seem right!!
     
  13. danielr

    danielr Junior Member

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    Thats an interesting analysis. I know a guy who is now working in the solar power sector. I could ask him about the tariffs, I just don't see it possible to work. How is it possible to 'feed' power in at night ? On grid setups don't have backup batteries.

    You would also need to factor in however, changing every single appliance to
    wisely purchased efficient products which take ages to research, however the energystar and greenhouse gov websites are very informational on the best products to get, even though they are only 4 star rating ! Fridges that run on 12V is prob a good start. Another thing to look out for is retrofitting all your lightbulbs to LED lighting, fluro lighting is not only horrible visually but far less efficient than LED :D There is one more bulb left here because fluro cannot be put on a dimmer.

    I think there really should be an information site with all the best products and appliances you can get for such a setup, but obviouslly think of the extra expenses on top of the mortgage then it starts to look scary. If i can find it again, there is a website which helps you calculate your KWh usage to help you decide on off-grid / on-grid setups.

    I 'cringe' at the thought of on-grid because you will still be leaching power from coal, unless you buy 100% green power so surely its going to be more than 15 cents. The other thing I am also cringing is off-grid battery storage because it's not exactly safe and efficient yet is it ?
     
  14. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    daniel said,

    as yet i haven't heard of anyone experiencing safety issues with batteries? i mean we sue them in our cars, all non-petrol/gas forklifts use them as do lots of handling equipment. for 12 years i worked where all handling equipment was battery electric never saw any issues. i know people on stand alone and they have no problems to date. some even use second hand batteries.

    of course batteries could be more efficient waht couldn't be? but with the push on grid connected power maybe no one wants to realy do much r&d into better batteries? in the end the consumer looses the freedom of choice maybe?

    i guess lots of people who are realy into it are asking lots of questions about the wisdom of grid connected solar, so i would expect the industry supportive statisticians to come up with some pretty fancy figures. heard the big push to solar grid systems is they can controll it easier?

    still reckon the real winners are those that go stand alone.

    len
     
  15. dgriffith

    dgriffith Junior Member

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    As an auto sparky, I've been privy to more than a few battery explosions - all of them were in conditions I would never expect to see in a home power system. Ferinstance, the last one went bang when a corroded terminal arced on set of batteries that were covered in about 4 inches of claggy mud,being oh-so-conveniently located behind the mudflap-less front wheel of a light truck in a wet, muddy underground mine. Winding engine over... "Gee, it's a bit slow..." "POP!!" "Eh? Pop? That's an odd noise...Oh, look at all the acidic mud and steam that's just sprayed out over the workshop from the other side of the truck! Look at it etch into the paint on that Toyota! I'll just get the hose, shall I?"

    As for efficiency, the latest gel-cells (that cost $25K for a reasonably-sized set) are up to 96-98% efficient (power out vs power in). Still a bit pricey for my liking, when ordinary wet lead-acid are running about 85% efficiency and are half the price...that's a lot of extra cash for improving the generation side of things to overcome that lower efficiency.
     
  16. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    Re: "tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

    This was reported some time ago: https://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008 ... 163375.htm

    Interesting stuff. I had a look at some figures and saw that as they said in the ABC article, it's not going to be a money-making scheme for the average household, though in principle it could be for community organisations, since they have buildings with a large roof area which aren't used much - but I don't have figures of costs for the larger (20+kW) systems so can't say for sure.

    Looking at some grid-feed PV systems available in Australia here - https://www.aussiesolar.com.au/grid-feed-systems.html - we can do some calculations.

    For electricity supply, there's an account charge which you have whatever power you use, don't use, or produce, and a per-kWh charge. It doesn't vary much across Australia, and for my company it's A$40.04 quarterly, A$160.16 annually, and the power is charged at A$0.16962/kWh.

    Now, they say they'll buy the home-generated power at twice the rate, so that's A$0.33924/kWh. So you need your home system to export 472kWh annually, or 1.3kWh daily, just to cover the service charge. Anything after that can go to making up for the cost of the PV system.

    The average Aussie household uses 14kWh of electricity daily. So AussieSolar's 3kW package should do it for them, that's A$32,000 before public rebates and A$21,760 after, and will produce 14-16kWh/day - call it 15, and then we see that the export will basically cover the service charge (you turn off a few appliances when not in use to save 0.3kWh/day). The thing will last you about 20 years before needing replacement, so your ongoing power bill is nothing, just that A$21,760 over 20 years, which is A$272 a quarter. Had you just bought 13.7kWh/day from the power company directly, it'd cost you A$251 a quarter. So in buying the solar PV, you're about $80 a year worse off than if you just bought the power directly.

    Of course if you conserve energy, then the PV could come out even for you. You can without drama get your power consumption down to 6kWh/day in the average Aussie household, that leaves you 9kWh/day to sell out. So you have the A$272/q cost of the PV, but earn a net A$237.80/q from power sales. You're thus only paying A$34/q for your power, which if you'd bought it straight from the grid would have cost you A$133.

    A community hall or organisation could install the largest 5kW system at $38,290 with rebates, getting 24kWh/day; most don't use more than 5kWh/day (since it's not occupied all the time like a house is), leaving 19 to sell. So they'd earn A$547/q, or A$2,188 annually, rather than paying A$117/q, or A$468.

    The other considerations are what else you could have done with that A$21,760, like stuck it in the bank for a few percent interest, and that in buying PV today and selling the power to the grid you're insuring against future power price increases, which are likely as fossil fuel depletes and greenhouse mitigation schemes come in.

    On the whole it seems a more worthwhile spending of tens of thousands of dollars than an SUV, but as they said, it's not going to make you money. I think that like the rebates, it won't be taken up much, simply because it's a long-term investment tied to a particular building, and the proportion of people owning their own homes is declining here Down Under; those who do own them often have heavy mortgages, so fear losing the home in the next few years.

    Nonetheless, it's an interesting scheme.

    Incidentally, the reason it can be a money-making scheme for the power companies is that it saves on capital expenditure for them. When they build a power plant, it needs to be rated not for the average power consumption of the area, but the peak. So if the average is 1,000MW and the peak demand is 1,800MW - well, they have to build a 1,800MW plant, which is hundreds of millions of bucks more expensive than a 1,000MW plant.

    Now, it so happens that peak demand is on hot summer afternoons as everyone whacks on the AC - and that's also the time when rooftop solar PV is generating the most power. So that if everyone had solar PV on their rooftops, the power companies could build a 1,000MW plant instead of a 1,800MW one. And even if not everyone does it, it lowers the total demand on the main power plant.

    It also means less infrastructure maintenance. If you use an iron or vacuum cleaner or similar, you'll notice the cord gets hot after a bit. Metal carrying current heats up, and things which heat up and cool down a lot eventually become brittle and snap and need to be replaced. That applies to those big-arsed power lines you get in your neighbourhoods. And they cost a lot to maintain and replace. So if the power during peak demand time is going directly from a roof to the house that's demanding it, that's less strain on the big power lines.

    So while the power companies would lose out a bit on the retail sale of energy, they'd more than get it back on infrastructure building and maintenance costs. It's a bit like paying $2,000 a week to two armed guards for your $2 million of cash being moved around between banks ;)
     
  17. danielr

    danielr Junior Member

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    Re: "tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

    Sorry ! I meant environmental impacts of disposing of lead-acid type batteries. And efficient as in its life span rather than its load output :)
     
  18. dgriffith

    dgriffith Junior Member

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    Re: "tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

    I realised that after you posted :D

    Well, the bulk of it (by weight,anyway :lol: ) can be recycled, giving a small amount of cash-in-hand back. I know I just used to chuck them down the nearest hole where I worked - but I did work in a lead mine, so they were probably glad of the improvement in ore quality.

    Anyway, my point still sort of stands - the newer gel cells as well as being efficient are generally much longer-lived than their wet cell cousins, thus less of a disposal problem later.

    Makes me wonder about the friendliness of the more exotic lithium polymer types that are starting to come into fashion now.... or the vanadium flow batteries, for that matter. I'll have to go look them up.
     
  19. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: "tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

    i suppose when you look at it daniel,

    none of the other componenets are real flash in the recycle capability either?

    wow jimbob,

    big math's job, but one that many don't do they just look at the glossy picture painted by some promotion or other.

    len
     
  20. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    Re: "tarrif" for solar power put into the grid

    Not really that big, only as difficult as balancing your chequebook. And if you can't do that, then you should not have a chequebook, you might hurt yourself :D

    An honest salesperson would prepare a sheet laying out the numbers, to say, "how much power do you use? Okay, that much... well then if you got this 1kW system, this would be the cost to you over 20 years compared to current power cost - but of course, the power cost may go up in years to come, what with carbon taxes or trading," etc.

    Lay it out for people in detail honestly and openly and make sure they understand. I worked in retail for a bit once. What I discovered was that I could sell just about anything to anyone. But the sales don't stick, people come back in to return things, or if like most people they're embarrassed to do that, then they just never return to the store, so you miss out on repeat custom - which really is the backbone of every successful business. If you're honest and open and straightforward and helpful, then you get less sales today, but the sales you do get are repeat custom, and word of mouth praises you and builds up your customer base.

    And you also get to avoid the eventual loss of hundreds of billions of dollars brought on by dishonest practices, like subprime mortgages over in the US.

    Anyway, looking at the arithmetic of it is what we have to do any time someone offers something that looks too good to be true.

    And looking at this offer, what we find is that putting solar PV on your home is not going to make you money. On average it'll just mean that electricity continues to cost you as much it does today, but you can get warm fuzzies knowing that yours is all renewable. Also I should note that if you want to buy wind or solar power from your energy retailer - not put the things in your yard, just buy power got from those sources - it costs another 5.5-6.6 cents per kWh. So that having your rooftop solar works out cheaper than buying solar from the retailer. That is, if you do want to have renewable energy, with this scheme it's cheaper in the long run to have it on your own rooftop than buy it from the retailer.

    But of course, you have to have that spare twenty grand or so. What's really needed then is rather than rebates, interest-free loans. That'd actually be cheaper for the government than the rebates are, and it'd be better at encouraging taking up the rooftop PV. So for example you could say, "the system costs $20,000, interest-free loan over any period up to 20 years, your choice, just pay it back on your power bill, so instead of a service charge of $40 a quarter, it'll be a service and loan charge of $290 a quarter. Then of course the company will buy power from you, if you keep using the same power as you do now then the total cost will be -" etc.

    It can take time to explain that sort of thing to people, but if you're genuinely trying to explain it to them and not trying to confuse them to get a sale, then people will understand. Most people aren't stupid, they just get overwhelmed by people doing a hard sell.
     

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