Cats within permaculture systems

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by pebble, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I thought it'd be useful to have a place to proactively discuss the positives of cats within permaculture systems, and ways of managing cats that are a problem waiting to be a solution within permaculture systems.

    If you intensely dislike cats, have ways of controlling them that are callous or cruel, think that the only good cat is a dead cat, want to discuss how terrible cats are to wildlife, please go to the Bloody Cats!!! thread, rather than raising those issues in this one :)

    https://forums.permaculture.org.au/ftopi ... 0-asc-.php



    I'm starting with these basic premises:

    - We're never going to get rid of cats completely

    - It's valid to restrict cat populations both in the wild and in domestic situations

    - Cats can be useful in controlling rats and mice

    - Many people have an affinity with cats that serves them emotionally and spiritually

    - Cats, like all animals, have the right to be treated humanely


    One of the points I was making in the other thread was that if you take cats out of some situations completely then you have a serious rat problem to deal with. I'm thinking of urban and semi-rural suburbs in particular, but it probably applies to farms too. Most people I know won't trap rats, but use poison instead, which is why I think that cats can be a useful part of a pc system.

    I do think that need to be controls on that - cats should be neutered, and there should be a limit to how many cats any one household can have.


    I'm also thinking that people who live with cats and get on with them are a resource on cat behaviour and how to manage problematic cats. This thread could be a good place to access that resource.

    regards,
    pebble
     
  2. Loris

    Loris Junior Member

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    I am a cat lover. But I was interested in a very old book I had about a fellow who had been named the most profitable farmer in Britian. This was between the WWars. Part of his mixed operation was running poultry on paddocks in conjunction with his beef cattle. He made the comment in that book that the best way to guard his poultry against feral cats was to have a few domestic cats which were trained not to take his chickens and chased off all others.

    I tried this and found out that it was very very feasible. However, it seemed to work best with un-neutered males who were very territorial and did not allow any other cats near my property. And they were successfully encouraged not to look sideways at my poultry. I have seen a huge half feral tom (of mine) lie on the grass and just look at little chicks run right over his belly.

    Also, regarding the mice and rat control - again this works a treat. However, it works best with un neutered female cats who are the most likely to hunt. This is a bit like the big cats where the females do most or all of the hunting. It also bothers me that if mice numbers build up a bit, we have the issues with snakes.

    So from a farming perspective, they do a great job at these two things. However, they produce kittens at an alarming rate. The only solution that we have found for this problem is to neuter and accept some poultry losses and some losses from vermin or to be responsible and destroy
    kittens humanely when they are born. Bit sad but a solution none the less.
     
  3. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Pebble,

    I read your comments in the other thread and agree with you about some things - need to treat them humanely, etc.

    Rats - I rarely have a problem with but suspect there are plenty of snakes around that control rats. When I did have a rat problem (once, for several months, one year), I did resort to baits but in town I can't allow vermin build up because it will be an excuse for council to make me get rid of chooks. I sought the baits which don't give secondary kills.

    Cats - the problem is controlling their breeding. If all you have are a couple of desexed yard cats, they will probably do little harm. But are little use as mousers either. Breeding animals don't just raise kitten numbers in the local area, they contribute to feral populations which do damage kms away from the source stock.

    And how do you confine them to a yard? Cats are harder to confine to a yard without substantial fencing than most other domestic species. So if you have outdoor cats, they will wander widely. This is why I keep mine inside. I expect my neighbours to keep their dogs etc. confined to their yard. I also am expected (not surprisingly) to keep my horses etc. off the roads. Since I can't confine my cats to my yard without $$$, I keep them inside.

    I agree with you - lots of emotions and plenty of people don't see past emotions. Humans are emotional beings, not rational. I try to find a middle ground.

    I don't know how you can integrate cats using PC principles unless they are desexed. Otherwise you will be putting down large nos. of kittens, leaving mother cats with the stress of carrying and giving birth, and possibly elevating nos. of feral cats, even in situations where feral numbers might otherwise be lower.

    I will look forward to reading more on this thread.

    Luisa
     
  4. elliceh

    elliceh Junior Member

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    So basicly this thread is here to tickle the ears of the cat lovers... what if there is more reasons not to have cats than to have them in a PC system? Then does that become another no-go-zone for this thread? An open discussion should have open and broad viewpoints.
     
  5. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

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    How?

    .
     
  6. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    In any choice there are positives and negatives. To reach a sensible conclusion we need both. Good on you for starting a thread on the positives, even though you know my opinions from the other thread.
     
  7. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    I honestly don't see that there is any way to integrate them into a PC set up although I read Jerome Osentowski's article on the Rosneath site with a chuckle.

    I just think the only place for cats is inside (Zone 0) as companions. If there is a rat problem, why wouldn't the local feral cats or the native snakes take care of it? Why would you need to actively introduce cats as part of a PC set up?

    I look forward to reading other points of view.

    Luisa
     
  8. Loris

    Loris Junior Member

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    Hi Gbell - our cats didn't eat the poultry because right from very little, we would watch them for any indication that they might want to hunt and chase them. They were chastised (sprayed with water, things thrown at them, yelled etc). If they were really stubborn, they would get thrown into the chook house when there were a few clucky hens who would give them a hiding they don't forget. If they stubbornly decided to eat them (like one mother cat we had) they had to be given away. We found that the only time this training failed was with one female cat who just couldn't get her head around the whole concept.

    Incidentally, the aversion therapy also worked for our dogs who if they worried the cats were 'introduced' to a mother cat with new kittens. After that, they decidedly pretended not to see any cats ever.....ever.

    Such a balance in nature.
     
  9. Loris

    Loris Junior Member

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    Hey everyone - please don't hate me because I love my kitties. I know they are probably really horrible and not permaculture approved but so are lots of people I know and they are a bit of a crutch for me like valium or religion or something. I'm just pathetic about the pets. Sorry
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    I think cats fulfill spiritual and emotional functions. If you don't have humans in a system then you could make a case for never having cats maybe, but I think our emotional and spiritual lives are just as important as our physical ones.

    There are no snakes where I live (in NZ). There are in fact no native predators of rats here (although perhaps hawks get a few, not a lot I wouldn't think though). IMO humans have a special responsibility for introduced species here, and living with cats is one viable option in certain situations. I do think there are situations where cats are not a good idea.

    With regards to allowing feral cats to be the main rat predator, I think that feral cat populations need to be controlled as much as possible because of the damage they do to native species. Their numbers seem to fluctuate alot. I can have one neutered hunting cat do far less damage to natives and still control rats, whereas with feral cats it's much harder to limit the damage they do if you allow them enough population to control rats.

    In some places eg suburbs or semirural areas there are often no feral cats anyway. And feral cats won't control rats and mice inside houses or other buildings they are excluded from.

    I know someone who actively teaches her cats to catch and kill sparrows (the sparrows take the feed she puts out for the chooks).


    That's really interesting to hear about your cats Loris. I know of a cat that was taught to not eat native birds by its owners. The same cat had no problem with hunting and eating feral rabbits but not harming the pet rabbits. Cats are generally very smart and while you can't train them in the same way you can a dog, I do think they are ammenable to learning much more than they are given credit for. I think alot of it comes down to the relationship between the person and the cat.


    I think there are other strategies too. My cat caught a waxeye a couple of times until I figured out that the waxeyes were feeding in the compost making them easy targets. I covered the compost and there were no more kills.


    Yes, I agree. Cats need to be neutered. Where I live now there is a feral cat problem and part of that is the result of domestic cats having litters and being allowed to go their own way. We control how other animals reproduce so it seems valid to do this with cats as well.


    Thanks ppp. I think the two threads will complement each other.
     
  11. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Here's the bit that Luisa mentioned from the Roseneath site:

    https://www.rosneath.com.au/ipc6/ch02/os ... index.html
     
  12. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Luisa, thanks for the headsup about that site, it has some great stuff on it 8)
     
  13. Waehner

    Waehner Junior Member

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    I find this debate very interesting from my perspective as a North American. It seems to me that the Australian and NZ ecosystems are all severely destabilized by invasive mammals, and I wouldn't count on native predators to control them before a great deal of evolution takes place.

    Here in the US, cats aren't as disruptive- they fit the niche of bobcats and foxes. I think it is very beneficial to have an efficient predator like that that works in and near the home, as long as we preserve the wild predators as well.

    Cats have been a part of agriculture since the time of Egypt, and I consider them a self supporting solution to the problem of mice.

    I wouldn't presume to have any answers for an environment so different from what I'm familiar with; I just point out that cats work well in some areas.
     
  14. elliceh

    elliceh Junior Member

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    That the whole issue here Waehner, they cannot be called efficient in our country. Unfortunately there are many easier (native and useful) targets for cats to prey on and unless the cat is starving then they will always go for a casual play/kill. It's their inherit nature.

    All of us on the 'dark side' don't hate cats for the sake of having something to hate, and hopefully noone is cruel to them. But when they cause more harm than good then humans have to step in. Much the same as some people who cull a chicken that isn't laying. Personally I couldn't do that as they still serve many useful purposes. But thats the point i'm trying to make.
     
  15. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Cats are over-efficient predators in Aus and NZ.

    The native wildlife aren't adapted to them and native predators can't compete with them. They take out more head of wildlife than a similar sized native predator would, so the prey takes a hammering and the neighbouring predators are squeezed out.

    Additionally cats are adapted to carrying a litter to full term if at all possible. Because of the ecology of Australia (I can't comment on NZ) what you find is a lot of marsupials will abandon a pregnancy or young part way through (very easy to do for them with pouch young) if conditions turn unfavourable. (This is thought to be one of the mechanisms by which marsupials outcompeted the placentals that were originally here.)

    Hence in a bad year native wildlife (marsupials) will not recruit many young but the good old cats will keep on turning 'em out. Not as many maybe. But still, they'll keep recruiting.

    Another reason why cats do so much damage is because around towns they either get fed or they scavenge and this keeps their populations higher than they would be if they were genuinely bush-dependent. (True, some marsupials do this too, but they aren't the ones of conservation concern.)

    And of course introduced animals like rabbits do well here so they also provide additional feed for cats (as well as out-competing the remaining native wildlife). It all gets very complicated ....... sadly.

    Pebble, glad you found the Rosneath site interesting. There is some good stuff there. I agree, feral cats need to be controlled. And I wasn't thinking of rats inside houses.

    Luisa
     
  16. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Where I lived before it's pretty normal for rats to get into ceilings. The cats don't go there generally, but they do seem to keep the rat population in check around the outside of the houses. These are climbing rats so they spend alot of time in ceilings, trees, hedges etc. I don't know where the cats manage to catch them though.


    Waehner, thanks for that perspective.
     
  17. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    you are clutching at straws, to save your beloved carnivore.
     
  18. elliceh

    elliceh Junior Member

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    hahaha PPP - good call, :violent3:
     
  19. permup

    permup Junior Member

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    Pebble, I think you need to invest some time, energy (and probably a bit of money) into rat traps by the sound of it.

    You are right, cats do play an enormous part in many people's lives (including mine), but unless your cat is prepared to hunt during daylight hours (which I bet its not) then chances are, you need to hunt for the rats yourself, because the responsible thing to do as a cat owner, is make sure your cats are inside at dusk, dawn and night, as that is the time that they are at their most dangerous to wildlife.

    I think older, desexed cats can be ok in a permaculture system, with responsible ownership, but I don't think they necessarily add much to the balance.
     
  20. Ojo

    Ojo Junior Member

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    Observation of hunting cats had shown that they preferred rabbit or feral pigeons. Birds and small lizards are not practical prey for a healthy feral cat. The death of countless native animals as a result of poison laid for mice during a recent mouse plague showed that the impact of cats on wildlife was overshadowed by the impact of indiscriminate killing methods employed by humans.

    A 1994 study conducted by Reark research for Petcare Information and Advisory Service covered 62.7% of private dwellings throughout Australia and involved randomly selected interviews with 4000 households in all capital cities exluding Darwin. This survey reported a neutering rate of 95% (well above that reported by the Museum Survey) and the cat population of some cities had actually decreased. The cats' preference for hunting introduced species (rabbits, mice etc) rather than native wildlife was also upheld by this survey.

    The Federal Government accepts figures from scientific studies which indicate that more than 4 million native animals a year are killed by feral and domestic cats.

    In fact, if cats had done even a quarter of the damage claimed for the past 200 years, there would be no small native animals of any description left in Australia. While there is no denying that cats kill wildlife, cats they are also convenient scapegoats for wildlife depletion due to human activities.

    It is the cat and the responsible cat-owners who are suffering. Many Australian environmentalists are now extremely 'anti-cat'. One wildlife park Warden proudly wears a cat-skin hat and gives anti-cat lectures to visitors, proclaiming that the only good cat is a dead one. All cats, both pets and ferals, are now caught in the middle of a propaganda war which has spilled over into the Australian Parliament with some MPs calling for culls, curfew and compulsory registration (the 3 Cs).

    There is a problem of anti-cat propaganda disguised as "education". Some environmental groups have issued press-releases calculated to stir up anti-cat feeling. John Wamsley of Earth Sanctuaries, South Australia states that "It has been proven beyond all doubt that cats are the number 1 problem in regard to Australia's loss of wildlife" conveniently ignoring the many human activities still destroying both habitat and species at an alarming rate; yet cats are just one of many nails in the coffin. During waves of anti-cat publicity, an increased number of desexed, non-roaming pet cats disappear. Owned cats have been reported stolen and killed and, despite legal protection, culprits are rarely traced or prosecuted. Responsible cat owners have been vilified to the extent that they felt guilty about owning cats, even if their cats are confined.

    UNOWNED STRAYS AND AUSTRALIAN FERALS

    Habitat destruction has caused native wildlife to decline while the adaptable cat can exploit the man-made niches. Ferals and strays were considered a problem by half of the Museum survey respondents and many favoured killing ferals. Lately, it has been recommended that cats found more than one kilometre from town boundaries can be destroyed - even if tattooed, microchipped or wearing an ID tag.

    In the Australian Museum survey, 61% of cat-owners and 77% of non-owners favoured killing ferals (whose numbers have been estimated at anywhere between 3 million and 30 million). Trap-neuter-return schemes may be inappropriate where wildlife is extremely vulnerable to cat depredation. New South Wales veterinarian Ross Hansford complained that the urban animal debate was getting bogged down in trivia: "It is nonsense we should catch, desex and then release feral cats ... They are a damned nuisance - we should humanely capture and euthanase them." Findings from the C.A.T.S. 6 year study on feral colonies strongly contradict his opinions and there is always the problem of the vacuum effect.

    In 1992, at a cattle station in the South Western Australian outback Professor J Pettigrew of the University of Queensland shot 175 ferals in a 10 sq km area. The army shot a further 400 in three days yet a few weeks later they returned to shoot a further 200. According to Professor Pettigrew cats were pouring into the vacuum created by the extermination program. Such wholesale killing is condemned as inhumane; some of the cats killed would undoubtedly have been feeding kittens which faced a slow death through starvation or by being eaten alive by "bull-ants".

    Morialta Reserve reported that the cat population had actually grown since culling. Survivors of the cull had bred and their offspring were too crafty to be shot or trapped! In contrast the trap-neuter-release of cats in 84 colonies led to an overall reduction in cat numbers as no unneutered cats were attracted to the colony and no kittens were born to replace cats which died.

    In the mid-1990s, Earth Sanctuaries Ltd, usually fronted by John Wamsley (who sports his dead cat hat with pride) issued press statements regarding their proposed sanctuaries in certain districts. Those statements invariably led to anti-cat activities in the districts including bogus reports about damage done by cats and letters from professional hunters who are probably bursting to shoot a few hundred cats in the name of 'ecology'.

    In the same time-frame, I was informed that the trade in cat fur may also be encouraged, presumably as an incentive for shooters/trappers. Humans may clear land, indiscriminately poison animals and other wise deplete the wildlife, but I see no bounty on the heads of land developers or ranchers who allow sheep and cattle to over-graze the land.

    The Universities Federation for Animal Welfare states that total eradication of ferals is usually impossible as some cats will survive, so that the cull must be repeated time and again. In parts of Australia the feral cat population increased following culling. New cats had moved in while the survivors had bred and their offspring were too crafty to be shot or trapped! In contrast the trap-neuter-release of cats in 84 colonies led to an overall reduction in cat numbers as no unneutered cats were attracted to the colony and no kittens were born to replace cats which died. Where feasible (considering location and also a generalized antipathy towards cats), colony management has proved more effective than culling. In remote areas, the effectiveness of FTC2 in controlling bush cats has yet to be seen.

    NON-LETHAL METHODS OF CAT MANAGEMENT

    Veterinarian, Ross Hansford stated of urban ferals, "It is nonsense we should catch, desex and then release feral cats ... They are a damned nuisance - we should humanely capture and euthanase them."

    His comments reflect an over-simplification of a complex issue. While bush cats may pose a far greater risk to wildlife, urban ferals may have less contact with indigenous species and may perform a useful function in controlling introduced vermin such as rats, mice and pigeons. In some circumstances it becomes feasible to manage colonies as the lesser of two evils.

    The feral issue was raised at the Australian Veterinary Association conference where a Australian National University spokesman quoted a study into environmental and health effects of cats living on 4 rubbish dumps. Whenever cats were culled (usually six-monthly), rodent numbers increased posing an equal threat to wildlife as well as carrying zoonotic diseases. He noted that feral cats from the surrounding area quickly recolonised the dump, forming breeding colonies, indicating that culling was an ineffective long-term cat-management strategy. In such situations, trap-neuter-return schemes, such as those carried out by Cats Assistance to Sterilise (C.A.T.S.) can provide a workable alternative. Dumps attract rats which attract cats, but rodenticides pose a danger to small native animals. Unneutered cats breed, but culling simply clears room for new cats (vacuum effect). In situations where the cats perform a useful service, the establishment of small stable colonies of neutered ferals (euthanasing diseased cats) deter other (usually unneutered) cats from moving in, do not breed and continue to control rats and mice.

    Australian trap-neuter-return schemes are being pioneered by C.A.T.S. in South Australia and the results of their six year study of controlled colonies are encouraging. C.A.T.S. is currently the only organisation in Australia involved in long term studies of the "Sterilise and Return to Home" (Trap-Neuter-Return) method of controlling feral colonies. Meanwhile other bodies claiming to be in favour of animal welfare are in favour of extermination programs and cat control legislation which makes our own Dangerous Dogs Act look easy-going.

    C.A.T.S. neutered around 25,000 cats over 6 years and studied 10 neutered colonies where local carers arrange food and veterinary care, one such colony being the West Beach 'rock cat colony', present for 14 years. The presence of a small neutered colony, as opposed to wholesale clearance, prevented re-occupation of the territory by unneutered cats. At the time of neutering it was noted that mass eradication might have endangered then-unidentified pet cats resulting in possible prosecution for destroying an owned cat without consent.

    The work of C.A.T.S. is ignored or denied by the more vociferous anti-cat campaigners. John Wamsley (Earth Sanctuaries Ltd) claims that there are no Australian organisations controlling cats by humane methods, only organisations claiming that it can be done, despite the work of C.A.T.S over the previous 6 years and similar work undertaken by a Tasmanian group. Following a British TV program, he claimed that he does not kill cats. This is in spite of boasts elsewhere of cat kills and the famous dead cat hat. Mr Wamsley claims to be not anti-cat despite a quote attributed to him that "the only good cat is a dead cat". His organisation has been accused of using press releases likely to incite anti-cat feeling and activities and the press releases may incite other parties to kill feral and pet cats indiscriminately.

    The cat problem needs to be put in perspective with the human problem. Comments made by Earth Sanctuaries Limited in 1995 demonstrated the widespread refusal to acknowledge the impact of human activities in declining wildlife.

    In fact there were organisations (C.A.T.S.) controlling cats by trap-neuter-release at the time the comments were made and their work had been reported in magazines such as National Cat Magazine. Far from just claiming that cats should be controlled by humane methods, organisations were actually doing it. Trap-neuter-release is not the only method whcih can be considered humane. Live trapping and euthanasia by a trained person can be considered humane if performed properly.

    Aborginal accounts suggested that the presence of cats (most likely Asian type domestic cats from shipwrecks) in some coastal parts of Australia pre-dated the arrival of Europeans, although a large scale feline presence may not have occurred (or been accurately recorded) until after 1788 (at which time European rats and mice were also arriving on ships). Finally, Earth Sanctuaries' spokesman resorted to personal attacks on cat lovers.

    "You are obviously in need of someone to hate and you obviously do not care who. The total cause for this [wildlife] loss is cats. You obviously hate wildlife. You obviously have a curious interest in cats. I feel sorry for you."

    The final comment is particularly telling. It is the sort of comment useful for inciting anti-cat feeling by telling people that a liking for cats automatically means a hatred of wildlife and that an interest in cats is wrong or misguided. Such comments are designed to placate people who don't want to hear that humans are partly, if not greatly, to blame for declining wildlife for the may and various reasons given earlier in this article.

    It is easier (and, in some cases, politically useful) to deny that humans are a cause and to focus narrowly on one of the other causes, blaming one contributory factor as being the single cause of the problem. Resorting to personal attacks about a person's interest in cats has the effect of undermining the rest of the argument as it tends to indicate, to me, an uncertainty about the validity of one's other arguments.
    https://www.messybeast.com/ausdilemma.htm
    from
    https://tnrhistory.blogspot.com/
     

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