"organic" status and uncertified produce

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by IntensiveGardener, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    Hi all,
    I was just wondering if anyone knows the regulations/legal implications of calling your produce "organic". I currently market my stuff as "chemical free" because i do not have organic certification. Everything i grow is totally organic and as far as i know no chemicals, poisons etc have ever been used on my land. We've been here 10 years and never used anything non kosher :)
    There is very little chance of anything bad comming in from adjacent properties either.
    Can i call my produce "organic" without certification?
    A local lady who works for a certification agency recently told me that i could not market stuff as "chemical free" because there may be chemical residues from growing spuds decades ago (to my knowledge potatoes were never grown on my land)
    She added that this probably wouldn't be a problem if i was going for organic certification.
    I am aware that i cannot call stuff "certified organic" but what about just organic?
    the other alternative is "naturally grown".
    I object to the prices charged by certification agencies and would rather not deal with them. If i do end up certifying it would probably be with a BD group.
    cheers,
    IG
     
  2. Cosmic

    Cosmic Junior Member

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    I would call it grown without the use of chemicals.
     
  3. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    call it '"permie produce" - produced using permaculture principles.'

    and I'll take 2% of all earnings from people other than you who use that term.

    In case anyone hasn't got the gist - '"permie produce" - produced using permaculture prnciples' - is copywrite
     
  4. DJ-Studd

    DJ-Studd Junior Member

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  5. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    Tis an interesting discussion - would love to know the answer.

    Paradisi - I assume you are joking. As you would know - the word permaculture can be used commercially by anybody who has done a PDC, but not others.
     
  6. paradisi

    paradisi Junior Member

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    joking - yes, but if anyone wants to pass on 2% of anything I'll take it LOL
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    You can call it organic, but... "certified organic" is where the market is, and there are very clear guidelines about that, including practices, inputs, monitored in conversion periods, etc, etc.

    I believe in some industrialized nations that farmers that produce below a certain size can market their produce locally as "organic" as long as they do not call it "certified organic".

    Caveat emptor, because my info may be old.
     
  8. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Yeah, I reckon 'organic' is fine. I think if you are going to do this then make information about your land and practices as accessible as possible. I know for me, when buying, that certitification counts for a lot, but also that alot of small growers can't get cert so in that case I think the onus on them is to provide information.

    Out of curiosity, how do you know that there are no contaminants in your soil?

    As an aside, in NZ a certification body has been set up specifically for small growers who can't afford the biogro or demeter standards:

    https://www.organicfarm.org.nz/aboutus.html

    Might be worth seeing if anyone is wanting to do this where you live.
     
  9. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Two interesting sections from Wikipedia about organic certification (underlining is mine).

    1) "Requirements vary from country to country, and generally involve a set of production standards for growing, storage, processing, packaging and shipping that include:

    * Avoidance of synthetic chemical inputs (e.g. fertilizer, pesticides, antibiotics, food additives, etc) and genetically modified organisms;

    * Use of farmland that has been free from chemicals for a number of years (often, three or more);

    * Keeping detailed written production and sales records (audit trail);
    maintaining strict physical separation of organic products from non-certified products;

    * Undergoing periodic on-site inspections."

    And....

    2) "In Australia, the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service (AQIS) is the controlling body for organic certification because there are no domestic standards for organic produce within Australia. Currently the government only becomes involved with organic certification at export, meaning AQIS is the default certification agency. Although there is no system for monitoring the labeling of organic produce sold within Australia, this primarily effects the retail public. Commercial buyers for whom this is an issue have simply taken the export system as a de facto standard and are willing to pay premium prices for produce from growers certified under the National schemes. As of 2006, there are seven AQIS-approved certifying organisations authorised to issue Organic Produce Certifcates, and in 2004 there were 2345 certified operators. The largest importer of Australia's organic produce (by weight) is Japan (33.59%), followed by the UK (17.51%), France (10.51%), and New Zealand (10.21%). The largest certifier of organic products is Australian Certified Organic, which is a subsidiary of Biological Farmers Australia, the largest organic farmers' collective in the country."

    Sue
     
  10. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Does 'no domestic standards for organic produce' mean that there are no government standards? In NZ there were two certifying bodies long before the govt thought to get involved (biogro and demeter). I think both those organisations were in turn approved by IFOAM, the international authority on organic ceritification.

    https://www.ifoam.org/

    The idea that governments should define the standards is strange, especially as some governments water down the standards to suit people who get into organics to make money (as with the Agriquality certification in NZ, and the general involvement of the govt in the US organic scene).

    That wiki section is confusing and I wonder if it is misleading or in fact inaccurate. If there is no domestic system of organic standards who is Australian Organic Certified?
     
  11. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Weve disscussed this subject a couple of times and everything is the same then as is now....

    Personally...After much hearsay etc etc and knowing how humans operate
    when they use big words to explain something so small..

    I came to the conclusion that "organic" no longer satisfied that"untainted"
    fresh produce etc etc. to me anymore...I felt "organic" wasnt enough,I felt i was dropping my standards to fit organic standards,and I didnt agree at all with most of their allowences of chemicals...They allow them. I dont need them.

    Organic to me, means that it breaks down it rots away etc.. Eg organic materials added to the soil in an effort to reduce artificial chemicals being added..

    Where does it say that organic, means clean, healthy, chemical free produce.

    I think its time a new word was coined to give us that chemical/naturaly grown label,that "organic" dosent give anymore..

    I dont use any chemicals or fertilisers at all in my garden....

    What do i call my produce???????? Naturally grown..In a chemical FREE zone...


    Tezza
     
  12. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Pebble, I don't know WHAT it means! Here in the totalitarian U.S., everything is regulated by the government. There are some things that seem to be run by private enterprise, but it's really not.

    And, no offence intended, but I haven't seen much that indicated that Oz was much different. Australia's motto seems to be "Find a bad example and follow it". And guess who the 'bad example' usually is?

    Anyway, I posted the article above just as a note of interest.

    And I totally agree with Tezza that "certified organic" standards are pretty low. I've often wondered if a real organic grower could use the term "BEYOND Organic"?

    Sue
     
  13. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Sue, I don't know enough about Australian organic standards to know how good they are. I do know that if that wiki section had been written about NZ it would be misleading, because it implies that governments are the good and proper way to establish certification standards whereas IMO governments water down existing, relatively high standards.

    AFAIK, in NZ there is no legal definition of 'organic'. So anyone could claim something was organically grown. But we do have pretty good consumer protection laws so I think it would be illegal if someone claimed organic status and say used non-organic fertilisers. Big growers and sellers aren't going to take that risk. Small growers might, but there are ways around that eg my organic retailer checks out the properties of uncertified producers, so that they are satisfied of what is really being done.

    However someone could not spray insecticides and herbicides, not use fertilisers, call their produce organic, and still have high soil residues of contaminants. Mostly non-certified people here use the term 'spray-free' though.

    I agree that the US situation is very different, and that the govt there is trying to undermine organic status so it is more commercially usable by people that aren't really organic :-(

    Would be good to know from some of the Australians where Oz fits in with regards to certification.


    I feel comfortable as a buyer with the biogro and demeter standards in NZ. I think there are some 'inputs' that are allowed that may not be entirely necessary, but I'm realistic too about the difficulties of conversion and the competitive systems that organic growers have to sell in.
     
  14. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    You really don't know what's going on with your food unless you're producing it yourself...and even then sometimes not if you don't get your soil and water tested prior to commencing growing your own food.
     
  15. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Certified organic products have to have had ongoing soil tests. So we probably know more about say Demeter foods than we do about food that's come from a home 'organic' garden that's never had a soil test. That's my feeling in NZ at least, as we have had ALOT of soil and land contamination here :cry:
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Don't get me started on getting certified organic. I think it is the biggest government/corporate rip-off there ever was!! But that's another thread!!

    When they banned the use of baking soda to stop powdery mildew, it was the last straw for me.

    Maybe in some countries the use of the word "organic" is okay if "certified" is not used with it, but the public believes, rightly or wrongly, that "organic" means that it's been grown according to the rules and laws, and qualifies. Some members of the public will be extremely upset if they think they have been misled into believing that you are certified when you are not. And they are your word of mouth advertising. We rely on the locals to spread a good word, because we are committed to the land we grow on. It's not easy to pick up and move away from the grumbling neighbors.

    Terms that are used here that work well are Grown naturally, no spray, no pesticides. People might ask why you are not certified, so it's good to have an explanation to keep them happy and allow them to trust you. :)
     
  17. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    New laws say its illegal to call a product organic without certification.... i'm about to head out but i'll find links and info when i get home tonight... bump this thread if i forget.
     
  18. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    The local markets here don't let you call your produce 'organic' without certification. In order to get anywhere near decent prices for our produce we need the organic certification, which costs about $600 for inspections a year. On top of that we need to keep a register of everything that goes in and out of the property.

    We are effectively operating with our hands tied behinds our back because we need to introduce tonnes of mulch to the property in order to rejuvenate our avocado trees, but either can't find organic certified mulch or have to pay a fortune to truck it in from hundreds of miles away.
     
  19. greenfarmers

    greenfarmers Junior Member

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    Milifestyle is correct. Australian law changed recently so you now cannot call something "organic" without being certified. You may however be able to carefully word a sign that says you grow using using organic practices, but are not certified because it is cost prohibitive, given the size of your operation.

    That said, we heard the other day of a scheme designed for small producers. You need a cluster in your area and you share audit costs etc, so it keeps things down. I can get info if needed.

    Biological farmers does I believe work out to about $500 a year. We have thought about this a lot and may still certify to be able to use the "organic" word. We have also looked into demeter (b/d) but wondered if the average buyer would understand the biodynamic label - ie it says b/d not organic. Does the average buyer have a clue what b/d is?

    Out of interest Joel Salatin (Polyface Farm in the US) refused, on principal, to certify and so could not use the organic word. He believed quality of his produce sold it.

    Heidi
     
  20. greenfarmers

    greenfarmers Junior Member

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    Mungbeans,

    Would repeated green manuring solve your mulch problem ? -- see the latest issue of Biodynamic Growing mag (we get it from our news agent).

    Heidi
     

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