miniature v larger fruit trees for productivity

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by colours, Jun 16, 2007.

  1. colours

    colours Junior Member

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    Hi,

    I've read a bit about miniature fruit trees and how productive they can be. The question is, if space is not an issue would you be better off, productivity wise, planting out an orchid of these miniature trees or the standard ones, or would even planting the standard ones and espalliering for convenience of picking. I'm just about to plant out an orchard of mixed fruit - stone, citrus, apples, etc. I need to line my property to create a 'buffer zone' to become certified organic and I was planning to do this with fruit trees.
     
  2. Tas'

    Tas' Junior Member

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    Hi Colours,

    I've been having the same thoughts. I have almost 1 acre on which I want to grow as much of my own food as I can cram into it.

    I'm wondering about your buffer zone. What is it going to be buffering you from? I'm intending to put some screening plants along the front of my property to buffer us from the pollution of the road. I figure I would use ornamental plants as we don't want to be eating food that has been soaking up all the exhaust from the traffic.
     
  3. ejanea

    ejanea Junior Member

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    I have grown a few miniature trees to try them, and while the fruit is lovely, I didn't get as much as with big trees.
    It makes sense, because the trees can only make as much fruit as they have energy to use and that comes from photosynthesis/leaves. With less leaves and less p/s you just have to get less fruit. You just can't get something for nothing.
     
  4. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I've read where planting semi-dwarf trees is the way to go. They can be planted closer together than standards, they provide close to the same amount of fruit, and the fruit is closer to the ground (less up-&-down while harvesting, all of which takes time and energy).

    Sue
     
  5. colours

    colours Junior Member

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    buffer zones

    I don't think I really need a buffer zone as all properties around me are horse country so I don't imagine I will need to worry about spray drift or contamination from GM crops. For the organic standard I need to have a 5 metre buffer zone which is apparently preferably plants with needle-like or fine foliage like casuarinas. I'd really hate to use these as nothing seems to grow underneath them and I am unfortunate in that my paddock will be long and narrow. The shade cast from these trees would really disadvantage me.

    So I was thinking of growing fruit trees where I can sell the fruit (although not as organic) and hope that that will satisfy the certification that I have reduced contamination from the surrounds.

    Still not too sure about which fruit trees are the best. Might contact the diggers club. Although I'm a bit of a shortarse so climbing ladders to pick fruit probably won't happen. Maybe I'll stick to the small ones. I wonder what their life-span will be like, I know that is always questionable with new varieties, etc.

    Thanks for your advice.
     
  6. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Considering you're not that keen on ladders colours, the fruit varieties you've listed, and the fact you're after maximum production, espaliering them is the way to go. That's assuming of course you are either already knowledgeable in doing so or are prepared to do some research.

    I've read a few studies of espaliered orchards and the production volume to space ratio can be much higher than a standard orchard if you know what you're doing. It's a fair bit of ongoing work and setup of course, but the rewards seem well worth the effort - at face value at least.

    I'm by no means an expert in the subject, and you don't list your location (I'm assuming temperate-cool temperate going on your species wish list), but personally I'd be wary about using espaliered trees as a boundary planting with no other shelter or wind break. As I recall, they are a fair bit more vulnerable to production reducing damage from wind, cold,frost etc.

    IMO it would be a good idea to consider using a solid productive windbreak species (most olives for example are good for temperate areas) for your boundary, then espalier back from that boundary.
     
  7. paul wheaton

    paul wheaton Junior Member

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    I live in washington state in the US. Considered the apple state.

    I saw one of these new orchards a few weeks ago. My gut reaction was that it was awful. A new kind of monoculture.

    I researched the technique pretty thoroughly.

    The upside is proven: more apples per acre. About 20% to 30% more.

    Since everything is kept low, ladders are almost eliminated. Much safer.

    When the trees are bigger, it requires intensive pruning, but since everything is low, it isn't too hard to do.

    The trees end up growing into what looks like a pretty narrow hedge. Sorta "A" shaped to make sure the lower leaves get sun contact. With a six to twelve inch gap between each tree.

    Overall, it seems mighty smart - provided that you are okay with monoculture. I suppose that could be mitigated by choosing what to plant between trees.

    I guess that would still be a little too monoculture for me.

    I still don't like it. I like the idea of working with nature instead of making nature your personal bitch.

    Maybe a situation will come up where it will turn out to be quite the fit. But I can't see it right now.

    Oh yeah, along the way of learning about this technique, I did learn that you need to keep the trees watered. Apparently the dwarfing rootstock makes for roots that are a little picky about the water department.

    I wonder if the fruit from a full sized tree would taste better and have more nutrients just because of the more extensive roots.
     
  8. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Paul,

     
  9. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    The main issue with dwarf and even semi-dwarf trees, if space is not an issue, is their life span and the quality of their fruit after 10 years, which tends to be inferior compared to a full-sized tree. The full-sized trees live waaaaaaay longer than a dwarf. There are 100 year old apple orchards and 125 year old grape vineyards where I am.

    Trees and perennials are so valuable, it's a shame to have to start over even in 20 years. Just when the tree has been productive, mature, can protect itself from drought and freezes, then it dies or it's level of productioin drops. It's a real shame.


    Here's one site:

    https://www.sln.potsdam.ny.us/pgapples.html


    "These systems are costly to install, but usually produce lots of high quality fruit early in their life span. "


    And at the nurseries I've gone to, they all say grow full-sized trees if you can, and if you want to prune it to keep it small, you've got that option. :)
     
  10. colours

    colours Junior Member

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    to espallier

    Thanks so much for your feedback everyone, I'm really enjoying this discussion forum, there's so much more to learn from you guys than from the text books.

    So it seems the larger trees are the way to go, but espalliering is more productive. So am I correct in guessing that I should or can use the larger trees and espallier them. Productive or not I think they would look pretty from my kitchen window (sorry permaculture purists :wink: ). I'm at Kurrajong NSW (or will be in about 6 months, just doing my research now as I just can't wait to get my hands dirty).

    Can't wait to see rows of apple and plum blossoms. Does anyone know of any references with regard to the actual pruning involved in espallier fruit trees and also how long it will take (how many seasons that is).
     
  11. Susan

    Susan Junior Member

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    espalliered trees

    Personally I find espalliered trees a bit obsessive compulsively. One thing against a wall a whole other lot of hard work in an orchard.
    Personally mine are standard, I have weighted down the lateral so they look like a weeping tree and prune them low. The horizontal branches have a hormonal thing going for them that produce more fruit.
    Good luck either way Kurrajong isn't generally as cold as Katoomba.
    Sue
     
  12. bovine_blue

    bovine_blue Junior Member

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    From memory, one of the recent diggers catalogs had an article about this in which they promoted the benefits of dwarf varieties.

    They were of course selling the very plants that they talked about though.
     
  13. colours

    colours Junior Member

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    katoomba

    you would win on the freezing factor. any hints on keeping the fingers warm whilst gardening?
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Colours, I guess the main thing I've learned from Mother Nature is She knows what She's doing. Once we understand what She's doing, then we get great results. The less we change, the better it gets.

    Why is it you conclude that espalier is more productive than normal tree formation?
     
  15. Plumtree

    Plumtree Junior Member

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    I don't understand why fruit trees on dwarfing stock have to have a shorter life span. I do know that one of the things to strive for when pruning fruit trees is 'open' things up so that you get more light and air circulation. A flat espaliered fruit tree would certainly be 'open'!

    Here is a link to a very good web site to do with dwarf fruit trees and espalier techniques......https://www.woodbridgefruittrees.com.au
     
  16. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Just to augment Plum's link:

    Espaliering - Rare Fruit Society SA (Click To View)


    SP, if you do a bit of reading on espalier orchards you'll find that for area used they produce more than 'normal tree' orchards.

    While I understand and to a certain extent endorse your statement above regarding the 'leave it alone' approach, certain fields like vineyard production and cultivation have been heavily improved by human intervention. There are those who would argue espaliering fruit trees (and pruning in general) falls into the same category.

    If you check the link above, I'm sure you'll see that there are good reasons for espaliering trees...it doesn't suit everyone, but it seems a very good fit for colours' needs. :)
     

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