who digs who does not dig and who uses mixed methods?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by hedwig, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. TCLynx

    TCLynx Junior Member

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    stuartgrant, I'm looking for a little more explanation on this one. I don't know where/what Len's website is so I don't know the details of the description of this method. Therefore I don't understand why it wouldn't work in a cool climate. Can you point me to a link to Len's website?

    It seems to me that this sounds a bit like planting right into a compost heap which I have heard works well for some crops. Providing the heat from the composting doesn't kill the plants. I would actually think that the warmth from composting might actually help in a cool climate. Then again, it seems to me that the terms hot, cool and temperate climates mean something different to most of the people on this forum than they do to most Americans. I always though much of North America had a temperate climate and I thought that included snow.

    Thanks
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    tclynx.

    my web site is here:

    https://www.lensgarden.com.au/

    as it shows in all my signatures.

    raised bed gardening has all the benfits or otherwise of tilled gardens, except without all the work.

    and as with tilled gardens organic material works in either climate zones all gardens/plants need organic material and they all need mulching, in hot climates/season mulch keeps the root zones cool, in cold climate/seasons it keeps the root zone warm, too easy hey? that's how it happens in nature whether forest or plains, and that is what permaculture encourages participants to think along replicating nature simply again too easy hey?

    as far as am can rmember i address any problems from growing directly into say mushroom compost as it can get very hot and even hotter when mulched, but the option of waiting for it to decompose and cool anytime from 2 weeks onward is up to the individual.

    by keeping root zones temperature controlled you then encourage at the very least moer worm activity over a longer season, up here in the sub-tropics the worms tend to want to hibernate or go deeper in winter so mulching changes this habit. to me! to say that someone can't garden using the necessary ingrediaents ie.,. organic material and recycle mulching is like saying there is no explanation why nature works so very well without the interference of mankind, doesn't seem to fit.

    and it is well stated around organic/sustainable/permaculture gardening that tilling destroys the soil structure and in driere zones it aids the loss of moisture, so why do it? and most tilling is done using mechanical powered devices so in comes noise and local air pollutants.

    i'm in a lot of forums and in equal ammounts they are in places like the UK, Canada & the US of A, so that covers a broad spectrum of climate and moisture zones and by far and away in later years raised bed.sheet mulched/square foot gardening is more and more in vogue as gardeners in the wider world community see the benefits without the toil or manipulation of the soil a natural form.

    i'm a convert like so many others are.

    in permaculture we are encouraged to have as much as possible a "closed form system" where we recycle everything we create and we create our own organic mulches/composts, that way we are supposed to then be aware of what we bring onsite under the premise we need to recycle all we bring in onsite, very hard to do completely so we work a minimilistic sstem where what goes to refuse is minimum.

    and when the productivity is factored in then the less physical work you put in balanced against production factor always looks good.

    there is "cold temporate" more likley to have freezing conditions and "warm temporate" less likely to have freezing conditions tend more to being similar to "sub-tropic" escept their winters may be longer.

    len
     
  3. TCLynx

    TCLynx Junior Member

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    gardenlen
    I think I like the idea of not digging and have been testing out a few different methods since Feb 2007. I like your web site, at least as much of it as I have read through tonight.

    I think I'm a bit of a cheapskate, I was only willing to pay $20 for a few cubic meters of mushroom compost and I don't think I'd pay for bales when I can use leaves and wood chips I have on hand for free.

    The planting I did for our spring season I used cardboard produce boxes and simply dumped compost into them and planted. It seemed to work. The compost was free from our county waste management system where they compost all the yard waste that is collected. It might not be super high quality. Looks like good black soil with some sand content but is probably of only medium fertility.

    The bed I just prepped, used cardboard on ground to discourage grass (only discourage since grass and weeds here are pretty aggressive) I Put down a good few inches of the mushroom compost (slightly decomposed horse manure mixed with straw bedding) and covered it all over with several inches of the wood and leaf mulch. I am planning to leave this sit for a few weeks before planting (going out of town for a couple weeks and it is still too hot here to plant anything other than tropicals right now) the mushroom compost is still a bit warm anyway. I think I will be planting a few double rows of corn in this bed. Fall is wetter here than spring (my spring corn was a bit weak). I think when I actually go to plant this I will use handfuls of finished compost where I actually plant the seeds.

    I still see no reason that a deep raised bed full of compostables should not work in a cold climate. The worms may not be active in winter but when I think of cold climate, you are not growing anything (other than perennials) under a foot or more of snow anyway. As I see it, in a hot climate the beds will need topping up more often since the decomposition takes place more rapidly.

    Anyway, I like the forum and am learning alot.
    Thanks
     
  4. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hi TCLynx,

    Sorry for the delay; I only just found your question for me.

    Firstly, I'll say that I've been enjoying this debate and I have been talking to as many people as possible outside this forum about the issue. I admit that I was surprised to find a number of people living around Launceston who are proponents and practitioners of deep bed, no-dig gardening. Good for them!

    Secondly, I’ll repeat again that I have nothing against any no dig method, nor against mulching per se. My main point is that any type of permanent mulching (such as sheet mulching and deep bed, no-dig gardening) shouldn’t be practised without considering the climate in which you’re gardening. So, in my mild temperate climate, it doesn’t gets hot enough in summer for decomposition of mulches to be rapid enough to provide adequate nutrition for the plants and neither does it get cold enough in winter for the life cycle of the many pests attracted to mulches to be broken (and slug, earwig and slater populations increase dramatically). This point is described much more eloquently by Steve Solomon in Growing Vegetables South of Australia on p.136.

    Personally, I don't usually mulch - but the fact that I make compost out of what would have been my mulch, and then add that to the soil means that the soil enjoys some of the protection of mulches against erosion etc. I DO mulch shallow-rooted planted such as pumpkins during summer.

    Another argument against mulching is that it actually increases the amount of evaporation occurring because the mulch wicks moisture up from the soil. Info on this idea can be found here: https://www.soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302 ... frame.html under the section entitled “How Soil Loses Water”. Now don’t shoot the messenger!

    Also, don't believe the hype about mulching making the soil warmer. Mulch acts like insulation; it regulates temperature changes such that - if you mulch during Spring - the soil actually takes a month longer to warm up to Summer soil temps.

    All in all, I would probably describe my approach as less IMITATING nature than UTILISING natural processes. So I don't feel bad about not mulching even if, as Len points out, it's the more natural thing to do. If it's not going to improve my garden's productivity, I'm not really interested. Having said that, I won't use methods that are purely exploitative or harmful to the garden ecosystem either.

    Oh, and Jez: re: Bill Mollison moving to QLD. I was referring to Tagari - the Permaculture property he set up in QLD. I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that he lived there...?
     
  5. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Tagari's in NSW Stuart - and Bill's relocation to the NSW Tagari had bugger all to do with the fact his methods don't work in Tasmania. :D

    If you add compost to the surface of your soil, you're mulching - with compost. If you add manure to the surface of your soil, you're mulching - with manure.

    If a leaf or straw mulch is soaking up water, it's doing so as part of its decomposition process and providing nutrients (assuming it actually a feeder mulch - otherwise it's just mostly adding organic matter). So you can't say on the one hand that it's not breaking down fast enough, yet it's soaking up lots of water - can't happen...it's a mutually inclusive, not exclusive process.

    Permaculture is a whole system which includes both animals and plants - nobody said you're meant to get entire vegetable nutrition from a mulch, far from it. Just like nobody said it wasn't a good idea to thin your mulches in annual beds right out at the beginning of Spring in cool temperate areas while the soil is warming up.

    You're perfectly welcome to think Steve Solomon is some sort of genius gardening guru, but Permaculture started in Tasmania, in your climate, and it works there as well as anywhere.

    Thousands of people (myself included) can attest to this fact. If you choose to not follow the principles - i.e. complaining about insect infestations but not using either Permaculture methods for getting rid of them, or any traditional organic control methods - that's your choice and your right, as it's also your right to post your thoughts here.

    But it doesn't mean these methods don't work - they do and have done for a long time. You're employing bits and pieces here and there then making sweeping statements that they don't work (in precisely the same climate they've been established for decades in), apparently without realising it's precisely because you're only employing bits and pieces.

    Believe me, I'm not trying to cause an argument or upset you, but this is a Permaculture site - insinuating that the methods I and many others have used to great success in your exact same climate don't work or work poorly is not likely to pass without comment or debate. :lol:

    As are insinuations that Bill had to move to NSW because his methods don't work in Tasmania, or that Permaculture methods are more about "hype" than proven results.

    Bill does actually know a thing or two about growing vegies...he set up Phoenix seeds which I suspect helped you get your own garden going, for a while he was a market gardener long before he started teaching Permaculture, and he's designed and developed thriving systems all over the world in every possible climate - in Tasmania more than anywhere.

    Amazingly, he managed all that without any advice from Steve Solomon. :wink:

    Anyway, whichever way you decide to do things, whatever you choose to believe, good luck with your garden - I think however you go about it, it's a good thing and I congratulate you for having a go. :thumbright:
     
  6. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    Stuart,
    I’v had many of the same problems and use methods similar to you. I mulch pumpkins etc in summer, also potatoes. I find it useful to mulch onion family plants too because they don’t have enough canopy to cover the soil and prevent weeds. Your right about the soil temperature under mulches; its an insulation effect. This means that in spring mulches stop the soil from warming as fast. In autaum however they can be useful for keeping the soil warmer longer. I’v noticed that bare soil tends to get a lot warmer than mulched soil or soil with grass cover. For instance last week we had about 3” of snow settle over everything. When it finally started to melt the snow on the un mulched beds was gone in hours whereas the snow which settled on my mulch remained for 2 days. The colour of my soil is a deep brown and this absorbs lots of solar heat whereas the whiteish mulches just bounce the sunlight back into the atmosphere.

    Jez is right about the mixing of gardening methods being a source of problems. The no dig method is a complete system as is the BD system or the intensive method. They all work well as systems. If you wish to take aspects from each you must think long and hard about their implications.
    For example, No- dig gardening uses mulches; without mulches an alternative weeding regime becomes necessary. Also if you choose to use the no-dig bit without the mulch bit then there are going to be less earthworms turning the soil for you and the lack of aeration may become a problem.
    I use the intensive method with deep digging, compost (not as mulch but mixed into the soil) and advanced seedlings.
    I’v tried it without compost, it doesn’t work. Using manure as a substitute works ok, but not as well. Where u can use old hay in the no dig method I’v tried it as a compost substitute (mixed with dynamic lifter) and the whole intensive method stuffs up, Too many weeds, soil pests, evaporation etc.
    In the same way I can’t simply do the prep for the soil the intensive way (double digging and compst) and then sow direct or use tiny seedlings; its not viable because of the weeding which becomes necessary. This method only works with advanced seedlings which outgrow the weeds.
    Mixing methods tends to cause problems unless you understand the reasons behind them. Often people who use conventional gardening hear about permaculture and just wack an inch of dry mulch on top then are happy to write off the whole method when they discover the nitrogen deficiency they have created.

    I know what you mean about the hype. Too often permaculture ideas are suggested by people without any proper experience who explain them wrong and claim them to be a/the universal solution to everything. I’m not referring to people on this forum but rather the people who scorned me for trying to break up my clay pan with a fork because “potatoes will do a much better job”. As I found out this was not the case (see my potato experiment topic). This claim to be the universal solution is actually very anti-permaculture because permaculture as I know it should emphasize diversity and flexibility. It should also attempt to work with nature, this includes climate and weather.
    I like Allan Chadwick (founder of the bio-intensive method)’s saying “Imitate nature in her mode of operations but not her results”.
    Often permaculture in the tropics imitates the mode of operation used by a rainforest for soil fertility. Us gardeners in temporate regions would be struggling against nature if we relyed on this. I try to imitate the way nature works in my climate. Colder climates may not be so good for beds made like a rainforest floor, they do however tend to create a more stable humus due to longer decomposition periods. We also have the benefits of frosts to break up soil.

    Sure, permaculture as a system works well there. However IMO Stuart is completely right to look into what elements of it are suited to his climate. No dig gardening is certainly a slower process in colder areas. The problems with pests do seem to be bigger in wet winter areas. Just because there are ways of overcoming these problems and keeping heavy mulches doesn’t mean this is the best option for every climate and every situation. There are always pros and cons to be considered. One of the issues I’v had with permanent mulch systems is that they are best for perennials, in my climate that effectively means asparagus and strawberries only.
    IMO Tropical areas have a vast amount more plants which thrive in permanent mulch gardens than do temperate ones. I’v never been able to grow carrots using mulch for instance.
    Cheers. IG
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    we found on our property when the winter frosts were about with ground temps around -4 to -6 the root zone under the heavy mulch was warm, and for summer if we planted trees and didn't mulch it was difficult to keep mousture in and the plants mostly died, until we had enough mulch availabe to mulch as we planted our success rate went from losing 90% to keeping 90% and the young trees never looked back.

    we where able to keep sweet potatoes going the whole year so we had plants growing early in the summer by heavily mulching late in summer same with pawpaw trees and ginger.

    len
     
  8. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    What variety of potatoes Len. I've always had trouble with them getting killed by the first frost of the year, though one of my earliest crops (a few years back) did not seem to be susceptible, just don't know what variety it was.
     
  9. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Hope that budding arrowroot patch survived the frosts down there VB...I've been meaning to ask.


    That's a fair comment IG...I think on the whole Permaculture has a very inter-disciplinary approach.

    Much colder parts of Tassie than Launceston (like the massive south-west national parks) are covered in cool temperate rainforests...the biggest, oldest and best in the world. Where you are is a lot colder than Launceston if you get snow.


    Sure, but as we apparently agree, just taking 'elements' can be a recipe for problems.


    You should be able to find quite a few more than that IG - especially if you include ready annual self-sowers. I'll make you a list when I get time if you like?


    Cover them with hessian until they sprout, then mulch them finely and shallowly, water well, thin them a little if necessary, then mulch them a couple of inches deep when they're more established, topping them up once again as they grow. Carrots thrive with a bit of mulch to protect them from the heat in summer and keep their root base cooler.

    This is one of many examples where you're actively manipulating mulch levels as a crop matures - you would do similar for most direct sown vegies and fruits.
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    vegeboy,

    these are sweet potato's the varieties i prefered where the red/purple skinned and white skinned variety but i also had that awful tasting pink coloured the commercial one commonly sold in stores. the plant we have now got badly frosted with the black frost it did ok on the lighter frosts but it will come back on with warmer weather. the normal potato's where ok until that black frost, so not sure what sort of crop we will get now?

    with sweet potato's they don't like frost so the tops would die off but the tubers and root balls remained viable under the mulch we laid, commonly up to 20"s deep, also had a choko come back after winter using this method, only thing was as has been said before choko's are not a drought plant so we just couldn't give them the water they needed which i think was around a minimum of 20 litres per plant each second day, or you get poor fruiting.

    len
     
  11. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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  12. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    More on this great debate.

    Oops, I thought it was in Queensland. In any case, that was a tongue-in-cheek comment, nothing more!


    Sure, I agree; but that's really only a semantic difference. "Mulching" with composts and manures doesn't lead to slug problems, which is what I was talking about.

    I'm not sure what you mean by the first sentence? It's not that I'm claiming that mulch doesn't break down in Tassie (!); I'm saying that I prefer not to ONLY use mulches for the nourishment of my vegies because I don't believe that the RATE of decomposition of sheet mulches in temperate climates is fast enough to provide it.


    Can you or anyone else point out where it was, exactly, that I proclaimed Permaculture to be rubbish?? As I have had to point out repeatedly, I'm talking about a particular method of permanent mulching, not no-dig gardening in general, nor permaculture in general. I happen to think of Bill as "some sort of genius gardening guru", actually. :p



    When I spoke about "hype", I was referring to the attitude of many that "mulching is the answer to everything". Specifically, I was saying that one good reason not to mulch permanently is so that soil can warm up more quickly in Spring.


    Thanks, Jez. I can see that you're very passionate and I appreciate your insightful input. I wanted to challenge a few of your points, but I hope that I did it respectfully... :wink:
     
  13. TCLynx

    TCLynx Junior Member

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    I'm not sure that any of the proponents of mulching are saying that the mulch has to be constant, thick and perminant.

    I think I've seen most of them say pull back the mulch for a multitude of purposes. Like in spring to let the soil warm up faster. Or pull back the mulch to plant seeds. As conditions change they then say to add a thin or light mulch to stuff like carrots or small seedlings and add the thicker mulch back in as plants get big enough not to be buried etc.

    Snails and slugs seem to be rampant where wood chip mulch gets used. I've found that to be the case even in climates with long snowy cold hard winters. In the hot climate I do most of my gardening in I actually have not seed as much damage from the snails and slugs though I have seen much evidence of them around. I just lay big pieces of decorative driftwood around. Then I can flip them over and plunk the slugs and snails into a container of soapy water which will eventually make it into the hot center of the compost pile.

    So I've heard an explanation why you don't think sheet composting works in a temperate climate (as in not hot but no cold hard winter.) Because it doesn't get cold enough to kill off the pests that like the mulch and it doesn't get hot enough for the sheet compost to break down for your taste. Knowing the reasoning helps us understand why you choose not to use a certain method. We don't have to all agree but knowing the reasoning helps us make informed decisions.

    The question I was asking though, why is deep raised bed gardening with compostables not appropriate in cold climates? I'm not trying to argue the points with anyone, I just want to understand your reasoning behind it. I've found that in hot climates the mulches or compost breaks down so fast that there isn't much left for the plants it seems. It would be much slower in a cold climate but everything is much slower.
     
  14. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Yeah VB, cut them back, mulch them with their own leaves and you might like to do some dividing at the same time if they've started putting out a few good side tubers by now - there should be quite a few for each original. It's pretty self-evident where you should divide the clump, but let me know if you need any pointers this first time.

    Alternately, you might like to just cut back the stems and leave the clump in the ground for a while if you're likely to have another frost before winter's end. The tubers will also store for a month or two.

    Glad to hear they have done ok mate. 8)


    G'day Stuart,

    I was referring to your last post when you said leaf/straw mulches draw a lot of water from the soil (as a reason for not using them), and also saying they don't break down fast enough in your climate. What I was pointing out was that the uptake of water from topsoil by a leaf/straw mulch is proportionately relative to how fast it is breaking down. If it's breaking down fast then it's probably drawing some moisture from the topsoil to help achieve that (depending largely on your watering regime and methods). If it's not breaking down fast, then it's drawing proportionately less water from the soil.

    I'm puzzled by your comment above...we apparently agree that mulching with compost and manure is mulching, and you don't dig them into the soil, so where else is your nutrient coming from other than mulches? Presumably, it's coming from mulches of manure and/or compost?

    Yet you say above you prefer not to just use mulches for vegie nutrients? So that puzzles me. :D

    Liquid fertiliser (compost/manure tea etc) is of course another option (as is simple increase of beneficial microbes) but you haven't mentioned that as a means of adding nutrient, so I'm assuming it's not a technique you're using?

    With sheet mulching, the available nutrient isn't just down to decomposition, it's also readily available in the already decomposed compost, in the liquidised manure slowly leaching through each watering, and in peripheral benefits like worm castings and microbial activity. The decomposition of the bulk organic matter is mostly just adding humus, except in the case of a feeder mulch, which is giving you a little nutrient as well.


    Well, I didn't say you did say that exactly, but your references to Solomon's methods being better in your climate and other comments were starting to add up to some sort of statement that his methods work better than Permaculture methods.

    It seems to stem from assumptions (which you seem to have picked up from Solomon?) like "mulching is the answer to everything" - that 'mulching' being simply leaf/straw mulching on its own. If you refer to Permaculture literature, you'll see that nowhere does anyone claim that permanent, thick mulching is in and of itself "the answer to everything." You'll see using manure and leaf/straw mulch together, composting as part of the mix, liquid fertilisers made from onsite materials, fertigation, direct manuring by animals, varying mulches and mulch thickness - a very wide range of techniques to boost fertility.


    Who are these "many?"

    Mulching is in many ways "the answer to everything" when it comes to building good soil - but only if you understand the term 'mulching' in its broadest sense. That means incorporating manure and compost mulches into the term (and every other possible 'mulching' material), realising that mulch levels need to be adjusted according to season, and realising that a lot of the function of leaf/straw mulches is to provide humus, which in turn provides better soil through various means.

    For example, that means cutting your mulch levels right back when necessary to allow warmth into the soil temporarily over spring or for sowing. Ideally you can use that excess mulch to build compost for successive plantings through spring (a hot compost killing any pest cycles), or use it in the orchard (where you have free ranging poultry - which again, destroy the pest cycle) and you already have a winter mulch crop and other mulching materials (manure and compost - particularly poultry bedding) ready for once the soil is warm again and needs added protection from the elements.

    Or you can just run ducks or chooks through the beds in turn and use any remaining pests as food - get a yield from them.


    No problem at all on that point Stuart.

    Good luck with the garden and we'll look forward to updates.
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    v.b,

    doesn't look like the older planting of spuds will come back might be harvesting them early yet, the younger ones planted about 4 to 6 weeks ago most of them look like resprouting, with the sweety i've left all the burnt leaves on top as extra insulation incase another frost occurs (looking at the charts it is possible yet) those burnt leaves will eventually end up mulching down on the spot, the important part is the main stem and tubers where protected and insulated with a good layer of mulch as well as the density of vine growth over the top i don't let mine grow rampant i keep prunning it so it gets thicker.

    len
     
  16. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Hi TCLynx

    Good! I agree. Although I have heard people getting a bit OTT about mulching and they might disagree with us...


    Same reason I don't use permanent sheet mulching; deep raised bed gardens made out of compostibles allow slugs, snails, earwigs, millipedes and slaters to thrive to the point that they are unmanageable - in my climate. The nutrient issue is also the same - plants become sluggish, grow strangely, exhibit deficiencies etc. because the compostibles aren't providing what they need quickly enough.


    Hi Jez,

    Good point, I haven't mentioned my main method of adding nutrients, which is the admittedly un-Permie option of a home-made organic fertiliser. The fertiliser is based on 70% canola seed meal (ie. the residue from canola oil production) - but any oil-seed meal will do - and also has blood and bone, ag lime, dolomite and gypsum. It's extremely cheap to make and is more well-rounded than pure blood and bone or dynamic lifter. And yes, the recipe comes from Solomon ;). You must think I'm infatuated! See below for rebuttal... :p

    I use a well-known liquid seaweed solution, although I could just as easily incorporate kelp meal into the fertiliser recipe.

    I also incorporate manure and compost into my soil, as well as worm castings (although they don't go far with my tiny worm farm). I have also started using leguminous green manures such as tic (field) beans and blue lupins. These will be allowed to grow until Summer - I'll probably plant frost-sensitive summer vegies amongst them and only cut down (and mulch with) the greenery once the chance of frosts has passed.


    Actually, Solomon doesn't expouse a method in particular. Well, he might, but I haven't read it. I'm taking his comments on no-dig methods and on mulching from a book in which only touches on these topics.

    As such, you're right in saying that I've been pulling bits and pieces of differing theories together into an ugly mish-mash. It's a bad habit, I'm told, but all I'm trying to do is to understand the underlying principles and use them in my context for the best possible results.

    Thanks again for the input!
     

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