who digs who does not dig and who uses mixed methods?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by hedwig, Jun 13, 2007.

  1. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    i've been around the traps for a long time now stuart,

    and i can say that i ahve never heard of any gardener in any climate not being able to either use raised beds or to use mulch, the colder the climate the just as important is mulch as it is in the hottest climate.

    pristene forest are mulching themselves all the time as this method encourages all the soil life needed for healthy soil and the process to work.

    lots of taswesians doing at also after all bill himselfe is from that area and it was when he was there that he first intro's pc to the public showing heavily mulched garden areas and no sign of digging.

    now the slugs/snails!! if you see the job as being too hard and never start it then it will never end so the snails win. every snail you kill is hundreds of extra snails that won't be there next season. so evening and early morning safaris are very productive means of control.

    as are setting beer traps. or laying sheets of material or pipes around creating dark hiding places and each day lift these and collect the slugs/snails. for desperate times use commercial type snail baits put into bait stations amde from plastic bottles. some latteral thinking what the market for escargot?? maybe you should be harvesting them and making a dollar or 2? but all jokes aside you gotta start somewhere sometime i guess.

    i don't see it as a debate the simple factor is nature needs no manual digging by a dominant human and hard pan or heavy clay covered with ammendment as we do when making gardens works as the top soil that is covered softens and the soil creatures will make their way through it and fix it too easy. think i got a link on site showing how a fella up darwin way handles hard pan with no digging, much the same as the raised garden bed way.

    len
     
  2. IntensiveGardener

    IntensiveGardener Junior Member

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    tilling.

    I also think the question of digging is worth debating.
    I'v no doubt that your method works len. i'v seen this kind of method used many times and its a good method of low labour gardening.
    I have found it to be rather slow however and to require a huge amount of organic matter.
    The mulch does take a long time to open up the clay underneath suficiently to grow carrots, no matter what i put in it or how deep i make it. Stuart is right about the conditions, the mulch takes much longer to do its job in colder regions.

    I use a method which includes deep digging not only once but also whenever my soil needs it after that. I find that soil becomes better when u put air into it. This does not mean pulverizing it and destroying its physical condition.
    I double dig my soil using a spade to remove the top 30cm and lifting the subsoil under it with a garden fork then moving the next trench of topsoil along. I always add 3-4cm of compost to the top after this and lightly mix it with the top 5cm of soil.
    The aim is to put air into the soil. This raises the bed much higher. After doing this the structure is amazingly good as soon as a week after digging..
    Compost is essential.
    I find that well cured compost has a structuring effect on soil far better than any amount of uncomposted or semi-rotting material.
    This is because of its physical condition rather than its quantity or nutrient content.

    Yes but i am not growing trees. The only thing i grow which would naturally choose to live on a forest floor is strawberries. Most common vegetables origionated from fields and riverflats where soil does get regularly disturbed by the forces of nature. This occurs during landslides too.
    You treat humanity and nature as two sepperate and opposed things. In reality humanity is part of nature. Humans have been cultivating the soil for thousands of years and nature has been repaying them for it. Throughout much of European, indian and chinese history peasants have cultivated their land with hand tools and added manure and compost.
    In many of these places the rich topsoil was 10 foot deep or more before industial farming "mined" it to death. A thousand years of soil cultivation created the most fertile soils on the planet.
    The farming soils of europe were far better than any forest floor or prairy.
     
  3. stuartgrant

    stuartgrant Junior Member

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    Len, if you sincerely think there is nothing to debate, that's fine. But please don't try to shut down the conversation that the rest of us are inclined to have on the topic.

    Again, I haven't said anything about raised bed gardening not working in Tasmania. I said that ONE type of raised bed gardening (straw bale type beds) is not effective in cooler climates.

    Neither do I have anything against mulching per se. But I have noted that permanent mulching causes more problems that it solves in my climate.

    IntensiveGardener succinctly covered the next point:

    I agree; organic or biodynamic or permaculture gardening shouldn't simply be emulating natural ecosystems. Mollison defines Permaculture as creating sustainable HUMAN settlements - it's not about living in the wild, it's about observing natural processes and mimicking them so as to produce food and other resources more sustainably.

    Ah, but Bill moved to QLD, didn't he? ;)
     
  4. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    That'd be news to him and the rest of us.
     
  5. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    I'm in the "no dig" camp personally, I only ever dig to bury dead animals, or to plant trees..

    Masanobu Fukuoka is highly recommended reading, he went against the conventional methods of farming and produces extremely high yields of grains, vegetables and fruits his no dig, no fertilizer practices..

    Different dtrokes for different folks, but I don't believe that bare soil is a healthy happy soil..
     
  6. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Yeah, Joel, but you don't have to dig! You have aquaponincs! :wav:
     
  7. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Smart ass..... :razz:

    It's pretty true though, I've just about given up on my dirt beds, the growth is just too slow in comparison..
     
  8. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Oh wow,

    Now if I can just get my lettuces, edge plants, sago palms, balsa, jackfruit and vetiver grass to survive on a diet of wild-flogged, diesel caught pilchard - MAYBE THEN I WILL HAVE CLOSED THE LOOP. Amazingly, I will have saved the negligible inputs of shade,electricity, purpose built tanks, shade, thermometers and chemical PH adjusters.

    I suppose the next logical question to ask is how do you breed your fish?
    What are your production,self sustaining rates? How do you breed your high protein fishfood?

    Do not get me wrong.. using fish as water cleaners for vegetable crops is wonderful, not magic but eminently worthwhile.

    Permies should always be aware that ultimately we need to benefit the site/environment past our use by date and make something truly sustainable.

    Joel, just where do these plastic/tin/fish pellets originate from and can you share your secret so we can grow some too??

    Have you ever considered stocking a dam?

    floot

    PS.. I like fish fingers..
     
  9. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Floot,

    I cast thee demons OUT! Oh, Spirit of Rancid Fruitcake, Leave the Body of Mike! OUT, DEMON, OUT!





    ( :lol: )

    You have probably not seen the videos of Joels backyard, or read his excellent book, but his little back yard out produces any equal sized area in my back yard, for sure. Small back yard in suburban Perth=no dam. There are limitations to food production in urban or suburban environments, feed sourcing is one of the issues that bears further thought, but I think Joels work is probably the single most brilliant development in urban food security I have ever seen.

    While you raise valid questions, how does Joel source the feed for his fish, and hence the manure for his grow beds, they are largely besides the point. "To dig, or not to dig", that was the question, er, topic. I was merely teasing Joel for talking about digging when aquaponics :wav: is the main producer of food at his place, and I doubt he digs a hole lot (hole, lot, get it?).

    To prove the sustainability of aquaponics :wav: on a larger scale, I am planting out an aquaponic :wav: mango tree....






    (NOT)

    For what its worth, we try to avoid digging here. We have some raised beds, which are needed for vegetable production in our rainy season, but, mostly, we sheet mulch.

    We are interested in the work of Mike Hands, who pioneered a system of alley cropping for maize and other annuals with inga edulis, though we are still breeding the inga trees to get sufficient seed fof a small plot of about a half acre. Read about it at https://www.rainforestsaver.org/ and https://www.theecologist.org/archive_detail.asp?content_id=424.

    This is a pretty significant step towards food security, too, especially in the lowland humid tropics of Central America, where maize is the major staple and shifting cultivation, slash and burn, damaging to the environment and no longer sustainable with higher population densities, is the number 1 agricultural activity.

    We are hoping to send some farmers from Belize to Honduras to see the work he has done with farmers there.

    Best wishes,

    Christopher
     
  10. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    As C suggested Floot, not all of us are afforded the luxury of space to have dams.

    A highly productive system made from recycled materials, using minimal power, producing most of it's feed on site, could hardly be considered a bad thing..

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on realistic solutions to urban protein production..
     
  11. Veggie Boy

    Veggie Boy Junior Member

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    As I've stated before, when I get my finger out I fully intend to be operating my traditional no-dig gardens as well as my aquaponics system.

    It would have been difficult for me to produce these from my backyard without aquaponics. I'm happy - but can't wait to get an independant water supply in my tanks so I can get my dirt gardens back on track.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Mike,

    Check it out: https://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=230, a book review I wrote for this book, which has a picture of Toby Hemenway and Penny Livingston (and Dawn Dean) endorsing the book.

    The book review is reproduced from https://permaculture.org.au/2005/12/11/backyard-aquaponics/, and the article was originally published by the Permaculture Research Institute, who, incidentally, host this forum for us. They all think aquaponics :wav: is amazing! So do I!

    https://www.energybulletin.net/20878.html is another site devoted to peak oil that talks about Aquaponics :wav: and where Jeff is quoted :
    Permaculturist Geoff Lawton commented on July 12th, 2006:

    Aquaponics :wav: is presently being used in Indonesia where the tsunami hit as a way to produce food in soils that were damaged by sea water. Aquaponics :wav: uses a small percentage of the water used in soil based agriculture, saving aquifers and rivers, produces astounding amounts of vegetables (the growth slide show on the DVD is staggering, it amazes absolutely everyone who sees it) and fish.

    Get the book/video. It's hard to describe adequately.

    Best,

    Christopher
     
  13. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Bumped for Mike/Floot

    Mike/Floot,

    You dumped prettily heavily on Aquaponics ("yeah, yeah here we come, guv " :wav: ) here the other day, and additional information was presented in this thread that may help you to have a better informed opinion. You have not responded.

    My questions to you are:

    1. did you read what was written?
    2. do you still have such a negative opinion of Aquaponics? :wav:
    3. do you now agree with Geoff, Penny, Toby, Dawn, Christopher and many, many others that Joel is a genius, and that Aquaponics :wav: is a fantastic method for enhancing food security in urban areas, or areas with limted access to water for irrigation?
    4. are you strong enough to apologize to Joel for needlessly dumping on his life work when you lacked enough information to have an informed opinion?

    I do look forward to your reply. A continued non-reply would be noted, too.

    Best,

    Christopher
     
  14. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Your a passionate man C... :lol: :D
     
  15. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Joel, ya know, sometimes you just have to rise to fight the minor injustices and petty tyrannies of opinion.

    Mike, we're still waiting.... 8)
     
  16. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    BUMPED AGAIN FOR MIKE/FLOOT
     
  17. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    FLOOT/MIKE

    I am not trying to harass you, but would like to hear if you still have the same thoughts on aquaponics :wav:

    Please reply at your soonest convenience.

    Thank you,

    Christopher
     
  18. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Mike,

    You disappoint, but you don't surprise. You should have apologized to Joel for slamming his work, but I knew you wouldn't.

    It's easy to throw rocks. It's harder to reverse an uninformed opinion after throwing rocks.

    See ya around,

    Christopher
     
  19. TCLynx

    TCLynx Junior Member

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    Sorry to bring the toppic back to dig/no-dig but I would like an explanation about why the one type of raised bed no dig gardening would not work in cold climates. Please, an outline to that type of method and why it is only suited to warm climates.

    I am actually located in a warm climate but I grew up where we used to get lots of snow. I am new to no till gardening but I think I like it. Last season we simply planted in boxes of compost. The compost was free for the hauling from our county. The boxes were literally cardboard boxes we got from a produce market. The main reasons we did it that way was we had no time. Just moved to the house and wanted to start the garden that season. For the fall garden I have prepped some beds with cardboard, mushroom compost (straw and horse manure mix from the mushroom farm) and covered over with wood/leaf chips to keep the weeds down until fall planting time.

    We have a wonderful humanure compost bin going but it won't be ready for use for another year and a half. Also have a worm bin going but it is new and it will be some time before we are harvesting castings.
     
  20. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi, TCLynx,

    Colder environments benefit from the warmth of the earth, extending the growing season. Raised beds act as radiators, making cooler earth.

    Might be a reason...

    C
     

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