watering fruit trees

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by anaturallearner, Mar 24, 2007.

  1. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    How much water does a fruit tree need each week to sustain a reasonable yield. We live south of Adelaide, southern exposure. Fruit trees inlcude apples, pears, stone fruits and citrus. We want to put in a drip irrigation system. Any tips or advice appreciated.

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  2. Plumtree

    Plumtree Junior Member

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    My guess is that there are too many variables to come to a 'hard and fast' rule. I have watched plants fade while under a drip system because, as I later discovered, the water wasn't being absorbed into the soil. Heat and wind will have to be considered. Evaporation from the sun is far more than I ever thought possible!

    Unless you are operating in a greenhouse you have to watch your trees and provide water in a judicious manner. It is desireable to have trees that are deep rooted so the frequency of watering is also important. :?
     
  3. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Thanks Plumtree.

    We mulch our trees - we've used rock mulch as well as mulch from tree trimmings.

    You are right about drip irrigation - when we've checked under the mulch the wet area is restricted to just below the dripper - it doesn't spread out, but goes down deep (but only if the drippers are left on for several hours). Our soil has a fair bit of clay in it, but the top soil grows good vegies if water is kept up to them, without fertiliser. We have had two almond trees die during wet winters due to waterlogging, even though they were planted on a relatively steep slope!

    Do you think applying gypsum would help?

    We've had our fruit trees for several years and they haven't grown much, let alone produce fruit. We're keen to get on top of this problem once and for all.

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  4. bill

    bill Junior Member

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    It seems to me (although i am no fruit expert) that if all species are retarded then the problem is likely to be either not enough nutrients or something about the soil that is stopping the plants from absorbing nutrients. ph is a facotr in this. i seem to remember something about Cat/ion exchange in literature i read many years ago. cat/ion exchange is the mechanism that allows plants to take up minerals etc that they need but it requires the right ph, salinity etc to occur. i think anerobic soil can also be a problem if it is freqently waterlogged.
     
  5. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    anaturallearner, it depends on the age of the tree, the root stock and the type of tree. How old are your trees? Did you plant them or did you inherit them?

    A rock mulch will actually absorb the heat from the sun and heat up the soil, and dry it out. A mulch that helps plants is plant debris mulch, like leaves, straw, alfalfa, a leafy mulch that will break down and provide nutrients to the soil.

    Roots are expecting the stable temperature of the Earth that is 50 degrees, so they want to be cool. They should be encouraged to go deep, so they should be watered long, but not often.

    The root stock determines the ultimate height of the tree and its water needs. A semi-dwarf, dwarf, etc. tend to need water twice a week, so if you are buying trees it should say on the label the type of root stock. Some root stocks can handle wet soils, while others can't. Citrus doesn't want wet soil, but a deep soak (dribbling for at least 3 hours) once every four weeks in the summer (with 4 inches of mulch) should be enough. If you have heavy clay soil, unless the tree is very young, the soil will be wet enough for an established tree.


    A tree on its own roots, if it's mature, say over 5 years old and at least 10 feet high without trimming, has established itself, and if you are getting normal rainfall, it doesn't need water. But if it's a drought, you might give it a dribble deep-soak for a few hours once a month during the spring and keep it heavily mulched, water deeply only when the leaves appear to be getting pale and starting to droop.

    If it's really hot out and the tree is stressed from the heat, and you know you've watered it recently, it's better to cover it with shade cloth rather than soak the soil too much.

    Here's some info from a university in California that specializes in agriculture:

    https://fruitsandnuts.ucdavis.edu/crops/8048.pdf

    If your trees don't have fruit, it's not necessarily because of water. Are there pollinators in the area? Two of the same kind of tree won't pollinate each other. You need a different kind of an almond tree, or a different kind of a cherry tree, for example. Do you have enough bees and pollinating insects? Are there late spring frosts when the trees are in bloom? Are you trimming off the wrong wood that would provide next year's fruit? :)
     
  6. Plumtree

    Plumtree Junior Member

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    It is not easy to understand your problem but I have found that this watering business has become a real problem. Once dry it is not that easy to get soil to take up the water again. Gypsum has helped people I know but I have not had the soil that reacts to it. It may help so check it out if you have clay soil.

    I would be inclined to take a direct approach and somehow bore holes within the tree drip line so that water starts to penetrate. Use detergent or those soil penetrating mixes sold to allow the water to be absorbed. Keep it up until the soil under the tree returns to a good active, moist soil, alive with worms and things. It might even help to put things that you normally put in the compost bin under a layer of thick, moisture absorbing mulch. This should bring in more worms and help to keep things moist.

    What about fertiliser? I have an unlimited supply of sheep manure and I lay a thick layer on the drip line of each tree. The trees are doing well! The soil areas I have worked on have returned to a vibrant moist soil full of worms and other organisms.
     
  7. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Although the drought hasn't been severe here the last two winters saw less than average rainfall and the soil is bone dry down to 300mm in most places on our property. Below this is the clay level which is still moist. The bulk of the tree roots haven't penetrated this far - we've had to move a couple of trees even though it's the wrong time of year, that's how we know this. I think this is why our trees haven't done well - the water we've put on them isn't getting to the roots that matter.

    The rock mulch we used in the past is buried beneath mulch from tree trimmings. I remember now that we put it down originally to stop the chickens from scratching at the base of the trees.

    From the replies so far I think this is my best plan of action to rejuvenate the trees to try and coax a crop of fruit next summer...

    1. apply organic fertiliser, gypsum, wait for rain before mulching 100mm (to deter germination of any grass seeds blown in from surrounding areas).

    2. Next spring, as the weather warms, mulch thickly with spoiled hay bales on top of compost and fertiliser. This should break down considerably by summer, when we will apply mulched tree cuttings (probably acacia species).

    3. Water deeply - once every three-four weeks depending on weather conditions. But we're not sure what type of irrigation to use. We've used soaker hose in one garden but once again, the water soaks straight down and doesn't spread out, making a deep line of wet soil. Do you think the gypsum or wetting agent will help distribute the water more evenly? Or should we opt for sprinklers and watering at night?

    The fruit tree root stock definitely isn't dwarf varieties. We planted the trees ourselves, most are over 15 years old. Only two of the apple trees are over 6 foot. The pears are about 12 foot. The stone fruits, apart from one seedling apricot which is HUGE and fruits well without any care or water at all, are very stressed and about 6 foot high.

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  8. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    You are probably aware of this, but I'm going to say it anyway.

    I've seen many people watering trees mainly near the trunk, rather than out near the dripline where most of the growing roots are.

    I have heard (but don't know if it's true) that plant roots will stop where the soil changes, esp if the top has nutrients and the lower soil doesn't have as much.

    When I lived in the desert and the soil became dried out, it was very difficult to get it moist again. Water would roll over the top of the sandy soil like it was waxed. I would use the sprinklers first, for about twenty minutes at a time (through mulch). A couple of hours later, I would rewater for another twenty minutes or so. Then I would attach the hose to the drip system. Gravity will feed the water down, but it has to be wet enough for it to be absorbed, and not just roll over the top.

    I would sometimes also scratch up the surface of the soil a bit and mix in some grass clippings or chopped leaves, just to break up the flat top of the soil, to allow the water to get 'sidetracked' into the soil.

    Sue
     
  9. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Thanks Sue,

    Your comments made me begin to wonder if the roots aren't dwarfed by the lack of water/soil wetting in the past... that is, there could be a chance that they've not spread out under the leaf drip line but stayed close to the source of water in summer. I'll do what I said and hope to rejuvenate the trees by next summer. If they don't improve we'll abandon them.

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  10. Paul Cereghino

    Paul Cereghino Junior Member

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    Anaturallearner,

    There is definately something weird going on...

    "The fruit tree root stock definitely isn't dwarf varieties. We planted the trees ourselves, most are over 15 years old. Only two of the apple trees are over 6 foot. The pears are about 12 foot. "

    An apple that isn't over 6 feet in 15 years is severely stunted even if it is dwarf.

    It is the description of your soil that is most perplexing:

    "the soil is bone dry down to 300mm in most places on our property. Below this is the clay level which is still moist
    The bulk of the tree roots haven't penetrated this far
    when we've checked under the mulch the wet area is restricted to just below the dripper - it doesn't spread out, but goes down deep
    Our soil has a fair bit of clay in it"

    It sounds like you have a foot of sandy soil on top of a compacted layer (perhaps clay, but you can have inpenetrable soil that is not clay texture). If there was more silt and clay in your surface soil, you dripper wetness would spread out. Can you wet till its like potting clay and roll it into a 5mm worm? How long of a worm can your roll and dangle? If that isn't working your surface soil may not have as much clay as you think. It is not acting like a clay soil.

    The compacted layer could be very hard for roots to penetrate either physically, or due to lack of oxygen. Then roots would be restricted to your bone dry layer, with the trees surviving by licking the surface of the clay. Compacted subsoil in a arid climate is a real beast! Is it a layer of compaction (or from calcium leaching?). Can you dig past the hard layer?

    When you dig a hole or look under your mulch, do you see soil organisms? worms?

    Gypsum can make soil more acidic (its the sulfur) and it just doesn't sound like clay soil is your problem.

    I think it might be wise to consider a soil test, or at least a pH test. Adeleide sounds pretty arid. Where evaporation exceeds precip, you can get a build up of salts in soils... high alkalinity can cause some nutrients to become unavailable.

    While fertilizing may be useful.. if you have a pH problem your fertility issue won't be solved by adding NPK fertilizers.

    It this analysis is accurate, I think increasing soil organic matter might be beneficial. Mulching is good, but if there is not water in the soil, you won't have the soil biota to process the mulch into stable organic matter. Consider burying food waste and other organics in pits around your trees (assuming you have manure worms down under). Find some kind of perennial nitrogen fixing forb (but I worry about water competition... I'm not used to ~50cm of rain a year...)

    In your climate I would seriously consider some serious water managemet so you can get as much of you soil profile periodically moist as possible. capture and focus runoff from your light rains to swales on contour near your fruit trees.... divert it away in june...

    But then you say that Almonds died from waterlogging on a slope... are you sure it was waterlogging?... The mixed hydrologic messages, makes me think you have some kind of hydrologic/soil thing going on that that is pretty specific to your location.

    Paul Cereghino
    Olympia, WA, USA
     
  11. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Berverly, Getting organic matter into your soil will make things much better, and the heavy mulches will help hold whatever moisture you have and is working its way up through the soil.

    And actually, having chickens scratching at the base of trees is highly desireable!! They poop and stir the soil, and eat the bugs that cause problems. Ever heard of a chicken tractor? you intentionally put chickens over a piece of land with a big, mobile chicken coop and they work the soil, and get it in good shape to plant!

    If there is any way you can download and listen to this podcast?


    https://www.radio4all.net/index.php?op=p ... 0686&nav=&


    it's about farming water, creating swayles on your land to catch what little water does fall, slowing it down so it has a chance to percolate. Strategically placed, these swayles can keep fruit trees watered even through hot summers. The man lives in Africa where they don't get much water anyway, and he's able to grow lots of fruit trees, etc. And he says, "Plant the water" meaning put the trees where they will get the flow from the swayles that are produced, don't put them just anywhere, because there may not be water just anywhere.

    I really enjoyed listening to this even though right now I don't have drought problems. But I think I'm going to do this anyway, because I do have to water in the summer, and I think I'd rather naturally water the trees.


    Here's the thread from this site that gave the link:

    https://www.forums.permaculture.org.au/ftopic4449.php
     
  12. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Hi Paul,

    In a good year we get 60cm rain. The orchard is on a slope - 1:6 on average. It's south facing (southern hemisphere) and cops easterly winds which are usually cool. Protected from hot northerly winds.

    The soil does hold together in 'worms' when wet and moulded. Two almond trees died one wet winter from waterlogging, even though were on the slope. I had assumed that the soil would drain, but it will hold the moisture. On a sunny day after rain the previous day I've heard water running through the soil. And we're not far from the top of the hill either!

    The soil test sounds like a good idea. PH could be a major factor.

    The reason I stopped the chooks from scratching under the trees was because of the slope - they (and the geese and ducks) act like miners, shifting soil from top to the bottom and hence they undermine the plants. That's why we tried the rock mulch years ago... Mulch doesn't stay anywhere we want it with chooks roaming around. They also dug up our bulbs which we planted as companion plants around the orchard. And they are half-bantam, which means they have little feet... Imagine how much soil big chooks would move...

    The soil is incredibly dry. It's the type of soil that goes rock hard when dry but sticks to your boots when wet. Some parts of our property have a sand/loam layer, but not where the orchard is. We had some huge surface cracks this summer. Quite a few shrub sized plants around the property have died, though the big trees look healthy (mature gum trees and olives - not competing as they are a reasonable distance away from the orchard). Friends along the hill from our made their mud brick house from the same type of soil...

    Of some interest - the acacia and tagasaste trees we planted in the orchard at the same time as the fruit trees have done exceptionally well. We coppiced the acacia pycnanthas and got good regrowth. Perhaps these were too much competition?

    Soil biota is fine during winter. Lots of worms and other critters. They would enjoy a good dose of vegetable matter. We put a half wheelbarrow of toilet compost on each of the citrus trees once a year but they don't look healthy unless they get twice weekly 2 hours of drip irrigation. (3 drippers per tree - we were thinking of doubling the number of drippers). They also get other mulch, but it's more of the cover variety than composting variety - that is, to shade the ground mostly.

    We're mulching trees - mostly acacias, tagasastes and olives - and that goes around the base of the trees. It keeps the grass away too. We're slowly covering the orchard slope with plants and groundcovers - eg pig face (grows well).

    We've considered swales and have come up with a plan to cut paths roughly along the contours to give us better access to the trees with a barrow with plants on the lower edge to collect whatever rolls down the slope, usually leaf litter, etc. These will help slow the flow of downpour water - we had 3 inches in one day in January (first time in 20 years, though we do get cloud bursts every so often) - the water didn't leave the property but we can see where it flowed over the ground in sheets in some places. We tend to do all our digging in winter because the ground is so hard in summer/autumn.

    I'll do that soil test. :)

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  13. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Something I did think of: maybe we got a batch of not so good trees? We bought most of them from the same supplier. They weren't grown in this district so perhaps weren't from stock that can handle these conditions? They were from an orchardist used to sandy soils and heavy irrigation.

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Hi, Beverly,

    I see what you're saying about the chooks, if you can't control their time under the tree, it could be a struggle.

    Are all your trees at least 12 feet apart in all directions?

    Did you know that your acacia tree is fixing nitrogen and storing it in its roots? It doesn't compete for nutrients because it provides them for itself. It's the perfect Permaculture tree for an orchard! And it drops great loads of mulch! That's the stuff you want under your orchard trees. Other very nice nitrogen fixing trees/bushes are elaeagnus (which just went through 4 degrees below freezing for me without a hitch), hardenbergia vine, perennial sweet pea flowers.

    >>The soil is incredibly dry. It's the type of soil that goes rock hard when dry but sticks to your boots when wet.

    Yes, I have that soil!! 5 lbs on each boot and another 5 lbs on the shovel, and you get exhausted just trying to move! And the cracks are huge in the summer, I always tell company, "Don't let go of your car keys!" ha, ha, ha!

    But it turns out to be the lifesaving soil of all time when it is mulched. Clay holds moisture so well, that if you mulch it with a leaf/alfalfa/straw mix, at least 4 inches at all times, you will be amazed at how moist it stays underneath. It won't crack anymore. And, in fact, cracking clay soil is the sure sign there's not enough leaf mulch.

    Toilet mulch, does that have peat moss in it? That would hold too much moisture around citrus trees. That is a very rich in nitrogen mixture and is probably overwhelming for any one tree. You could mix that up with lots of compost and straw, make it about 1/3 of the mix, and spread it thinly. Established trees don't need as much nitrogen as they need humus, minerals, and compost.

    Do you cook your toilet compost for an extra year out in the sun with no rain getting to it, or in a silver garbage can with a lid so it really cooks? It's always a good idea, because you don't want to be working around that mixture (or your dogs or cats walking and digging through that mixture) without knowing that every single inch of it has gotten up to at least 150 degrees at some point. :)

    I would highly recommend clovers on your slopes as a ground cover. They fix nitrogen, they reseed themselves, they help control erosion. I just put up a deer fence, and for the first time in history the clovers that are there naturally are running wild. I was so focused on keeping the deer off the trees that I forgot they were keeping the clovers from growing deep and providing biomass. Once they die back I'll mow them in place. I only get fog in the summer months from the ocean, and it's enough moisture to keep the clovers going until almost fall.

    And a couple more questions, are your fruit trees getting new growth each season and just no fruit? Or are they barely growing? Or do they bloom and then the fruit doesn't set?
     
  15. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Thanks Sweatpea :)

    our trees do flower and set fruit, but not much. We get hail in spring, which doesn't help, usually during blossom. Plus the parrots (lorikeets) like to nibble on the flowers. I don't mind losing some crop to the critters - it's one of the reasons we planted lots of trees.

    Our fruit trees are all more than 12 feet apart.

    The reason we planted acacias and tagasaste was because they fix nitrogen. Maybe we should think about planting some more.... However, they did get too large (we had a couple of busy distracted years) and then were shading the fruit trees.

    Will look into more nitrogen fixing groundcovers, especially clovers. Next week we'll try and hunt down some spoiled hay... I reckon we could use a truck load!

    Thanks for the tips on cooking the clivus mulch.

    cheers
    beverley
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Beverly, sounds like your trees are doing well if they are blossoming. And it's the hail and birds that are taking their share. It happens here, too. Almost every year just as the roses are going to open to all their glory a crazy hail storm smashes down, although they recoop quite well.

    The trees can create too much shade, that's why I like nitrogen-fixing shrubs, they stay a reasonable size, are trimmed easily for composting, the evergreen ones drop leaves all year 'round, and can handle some neglect when life gets in the way.

    I love acacias, though. Yours must be quite beautiful when it's covered with yellow blossoms. Let us know how it all turns out :)
     
  17. stevieray

    stevieray Junior Member

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    Beverley, do you have a limestone layer below your topsoil?

    Many areas south of Adelaide (south of Darlington/Seacliff) have clay-loam over limestone pan and clay; it is important to break through it before planting fruit trees. Otherwise this soil can be quite fertile if kept fed with mulch and watered. The mulch is also important to keep the water from puddling on the soil and turning it to concrete.

    A good supplier for fruit trees in southern Adelaide is Perry's Nursery at McLaren Flat. They will test your soil sample and supply trees with an appropriate rootstock for your conditions.

    Cheers,
    Vaughano.
     
  18. anaturallearner

    anaturallearner Junior Member

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    watering fruit trees

    Hi Vaughano.

    I believe there is limestone below the clay but it's really deep. We've dug a cutting for the garage that's 6 feet deep and not hit the limestone rock. The topsoil/subsoil is good for growing plants and is up to 2 feet deep in places, then we have a sticky red clay layer of about the same depth, then white clay that seems sandy (totally different texture to the red clay). The topsoil contains beach sand which I think must have been blown up here (we're on a hill) during the last period of glaciation when the Gult St Vincent was dry.

    Would the limestone be a problem if it's that deep?

    cheers
    Beverley
     
  19. stevieray

    stevieray Junior Member

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    Re: watering fruit trees

    No, but that clay-pan you describe could very well be a problem.
     

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