MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY and Permaculture

Discussion in 'Buy, sell, trade, give away & exchange' started by Geoff Lawton, Feb 5, 2007.

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  1. dylanz

    dylanz Junior Member

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    Geoff, I just moved from Santa Barbara (CA) to Takaka (NZ), and you were soooo close to Oprah when you were in SB :)
    Getting large philanthropists passionate would only help... and I fully agree with your vision.

    Keep up the good work Geoff, Nadia, and everybody on these forums.
     
  2. sustain

    sustain New Member

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    i am amazed by the passion you all have at this forum. I have recently purchased a book "the Holistic Life" (Ian Illington) and feel I neeeeed to do something with permaculture. I have been fortunate enough to buy a home for me and my children in suburban Perth 856m2 block. I desperately want permaculture as my way of life as it has linked together many interests i have had for a long time. Could anyone tell me more about courses in Perth which will lead me on my path.
    Keep up the good work rich and poor. i think you're all rich if you have this common goal and you are helping to make this world a better place rather than conforming to the masses like sheep and ignorant to what is actually happening in our world. Oh and has anyone read "How to be Idle" etc. That get's you arked up!
     
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  3. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Is permacutlure economically sustainable?

    I put this on another list, and have gotten no replies, so I'll just ask the question on this list:

    Is there anyone out there who is making a living via products grown in a permaculture environment?

    Not consulting, not giving classes, not charging people to work for you.

    But by selling the fruits of your permaculture labor.

    If not, then I have to question whether permaculture in and of itself is sustainable.

    I am not turned off from the permaculture idea, and will keep trying to see how I can implement it, but, I have to wonder whether I can support myself by selling stinging nettle at a farmers' market.

    I suspect to be profitable, permaculture will need to always be an adjunct to traditional farming. But, please, someone, tell me I'm wrong. And give me details.
     
  4. Bigfred

    Bigfred Junior Member

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    I would imagine that scale would be the main factor in whether one could make a living at permaculture; eg. my humble backyard although quite productive and from records kept over the past couple of years saving us a few hundred dollars per year in green-grocery costs (based on seasonal market prices), could never be said to provide a living. There are people however making quite good livings from market gardens and I would imagine the application of permaculture techniques to operations of that size would also be quite profitable, probably more-so than conventional growing due to the higher price commanded for organically grown veges.
     
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  5. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Are any of those people on this list?

    I would be interested in hearing from some of these folks who are successful at it.
     
  6. Leuchtturm

    Leuchtturm Junior Member

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  7. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Educational background of successful permaculture consultant

    I'm just wondering what the educational and technical backgrounds are of some successful PDC holders, and consultants.

    Seems like one wouldn't have a whole lot of credibility unless you also had a degree in botany, or engineering, or even geology.

    I'm just trying to make sure if I do a PDC, that I'm not just wasting my money. $1000 is a lot of money for some folks.
     
  8. dylanz

    dylanz Junior Member

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    zydeco... for what it's worth... im a software engineer, and am going to get my PDC. why ? because it's a great start to a long term relationship with permaculture. we're going to go steady one day :D

    i also never got my degree in computer science... but instead learned on my own, and from others. have been working with large companies doing software work for the last 6 years.

    basically... you can manifest what you want. you just need to really want it.
     
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  9. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    And then what

    Are you going to hire yourself out as a consultant, or are you just going to work on your own land?

    I'm also a software developer. This will help me if I'm going to create a database of plants and their characteristics. It won't help me design a dam or a methane digester.

    Geoff is talking about the consultancies available for people "who know what they're doing". I am looking for some background information regarding the types of consultants who get taken seriously, and whether a client paying out $20,000 for a PDC is going to want to pay that to someone who does not have more under their belt than a PDC.

    I've seen too many "faith based" enterprises just be used to make money. I'm looking for some information, and it doesn't seem to be coming through yet.

    Not to be rude, but you're giving me information regarding what you hope to do. I would like to hear from people who have done it, and can pay their bills. Words like "manifest", though they give you a lot of hope, don't really tell me what I need to know.
     
  10. dylanz

    dylanz Junior Member

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    true that zydeco. id be interested to hear some experience/situation/figures as well.

    as for me... you've got to start somewhere :wink:
     
  11. Geoff Lawton

    Geoff Lawton Administrator Staff Member

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    Making money from productive permaculture

    Hi Folks check out the web site The Path to Freedom it covers the suburban system in LA that produces 3 tons of food a year from on tenth of an acre.

    We produce a lot of surplus here at Diversity Farm which although we are often feeding more than 10 to 20 people we sell through the village shop and monthly market.

    Right now we are over supplied with zuccinis, bamboo shoots, with thousands of corn coming on.

    We could create a great diverse surplus but marketing on a very regular basis is always a challenge.
     
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  12. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Could you check your PM's when you have time please Geoff.

    --------------------------------

    As for making a living using Permaculture practices to grow produce, loads of 'organic' farmers use elements of Permaculture in their systems. The fact is, most high-profile Permaculture people get their profile by teaching and/or publishing, so that is their focus, while many others use Permaculture to enhance their lives rather than provide a living. And of course, Permaculture principles can be applied to almost any occupation, not just organic farming.

    Perhaps the best example of earning a very good living from Permaculture just through produce grown is Takao Furuno, author of The Power of Duck: Integrated Rice and Duck Farming. Off the top of my head, I think back in 2001 when it was published he was earning about $100K US a year from his very small farm where he produces ducks, rice and organic vegies. He explains all about his beautifully integrated system - from the nuts and bolts of production right down to marketing strategies and customers - in the book.

    Check it out, it's an excellent book - available from Tagari.
     
  13. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Ducks

    Thanks. I'll try to get that book.
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Backing up a post or three, I am a consultant, sometimes, a photovoltaic/wind system designer and installer, some times, a farmer, full time, a student, sometimes, learning, all the time.

    I have no degree. I left high school in 11th grade, did 18 months at university, left that, the calendar pages roll a bit, and ended up here in Belize where I found a nice, cheap piece of land.

    I feed my family from this land, though we buy some things, flour, milk, tea, onion, garlic, some rice, some beans. I produce all my fruit and veggies.

    As a consultant I have worked for Peace Corps, Government of Belize's Ministry of Agriculture, a dozen NGOs and CBOs. I have lectured at universities on agroforestry and development, and consulted to large land owners, small land holders, a large organic chocolate company and a small fine chocolate company. I have mostly lived right here on the farm, but have used my work to go to Guatemala, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama, Venezuela, London and Amsterdam. Last year I was lucky enough to go to venezuela to look at cacao.

    If you ask most conventional/chemical/monoculture farmers if they are really making money, most of them work jobs to keep the farm afloat. That is not much different than most "permie" farms.

    Anyway, we always have surplus, but, as Geoff pointed out, marketing can be hard. We feed multiple people here off of this land, and provide food for our poultry.

    If you wanted to live very simply, you could do it from this farm, but, if you want to travel, have hobbies, etc, you have to supplement your income with things from off the farm.
     
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  15. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    extra money

    Yeah, I was just concerned about the things that are hard to get around buying in the US, like health insurance, car insurance, etc.
     
  16. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    See, it is possible to live off of a permaculture farm. Most of my neighbors are using indigenous agricultural practices that would be considered "permaculture". They live off of their land, eat well, build housing from their land, sell some stuff in the market, raise animals, but they seldom have excess cash, they struggle to save money, put kids through school, etc from crops. Most people work a bit outside the farm now and again, to buy TVs, a washing machine, etc, ut their daily needs are met from the farm and income provided from the farm.

    The extra stuff, stuff you don't "need" for pure survival, car insurance, health insurance, etc, etc, are hard to make off of any small holding, whether you have 12 acres of broccoli or 12 acres f complex agroforestry. Scale is often the determining factor in "profitability", even in complete economic models.
     
  17. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    pure survival

    The prospect of being 55, single, looking at retiring in the next 8 years or so, not owning land yet, etc, does not make me look with excitement upon the idea of living for "pure survival".

    If we were already in a post-apocalyptic society, and my name was Mad Max, pure survival would probably look pretty good.

    The idea of not being able to totally support myself on a farm is realistic, permaculture or not. The idea of having to pay $1000 for a certificate, without much guarantee that the course contents are professionally developed and presented, and for an idea that preaches sustainability, but for the most part seems to be sustainable only if more and more students are willing to pay the $1000 (0r $20.000), just makes me a little wary.

    I will keep looking to permaculture techniques to help my goals, but I don't intend to buy into the whole "new world view" with my pocket book or nor disavow my healthy skepticism.
     
  18. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Congratulations also

    Christopher,

    I'd also like to congratulate you on all you have accomplished too. I can see where you could take a lot of satisfaction from your efforts.

    My contentiousness on this topic just spawns from a healthy dose of skepticism, garnered from many years of trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. And there seems to be a goodly dose of hype that is coming through on permaculture.

    I think permaculture design techniques, and the whole ideology, will need to go through a further process of interfacing with conventional society, and something like peer-reviewed college course work developed, before things take off.

    There was a time when organic gardening techniques were considered just woo-woo hippy crap. They have become accepted now, and have benefitted from university level research and validation. Permaculture will need to do the same.

    Though a big part of me wants to "drop out, tune in, and eat dirt", I have to take some bits of reality into account.

    I am working towards getting some land, and am gleaning what I can about being able to build that land, even though I won't be a resident there for at least 8 years.

    Again, congratulations on carving out a meaningful existence, outside of the mainstream. I'm sincerely jealous.
     
  19. DJ-Studd

    DJ-Studd Junior Member

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    Hi Zydeco,
    have you got a copy of Bill Mollison's books? You can order them from https://www.tagari.com . The designers manual is used as the course handbook, so you may be able to make a start without the $1000 investment. This is what I am doing, anyway.
    Cheers
     
  20. zydeco

    zydeco Junior Member

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    Mollison

    Thanks DJ. I just found out today, a college near me offers two or three classes in permaculture, but they're offered during the day, when I'm working.

    THey also offer several Regenerative Design courses, which are offered at a time I can take them.

    https://www.merrittlandhort.com

    So, maybe times they are a changing.
     
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