Has the P movement hijacked the 'organic' gardening movement

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by ho-hum, Dec 16, 2006.

  1. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Sorry for posting an abbreviated question.

    It goes like this. ''Has the Permaculture Movement hijacked the Organic Gardening Movement?

    I dont believe it has and I have been an organic gardener since 1967. I am not trying to defend or attack anyone but I have run across, dozens of times, in my past- people who would now identify with permaculture- because they 'felt' that way. This was evidenced [by them] because they didnt use agricultural sprays on their tomatoes. Remarkably many of them use them on their lawn. (They dont eat lawn.)

    This would be funny but they use the ag-soaked lawn clippings to mulch their 'organic' fruit trees.

    Recently there was a thread about APT's... which [the politics] was new to me and very interesting.

    Where are we as a group? Should we be contesting the use of the word Permaculture by, maytheysay, well meaning folk who are altruisticly and naively misinforming folk?

    cheers

    floot
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day floot,

    the way i see it going organic is taking one step going permacuture is another step, though organics is part of the permaculture picture.

    as a group we are very small in the big picture, not enough is being done to get the interest of the grass roots common man level, if i can say that, always too much emphasis on it costing money before you are allowed to change the way you live to make it easier on this planet home of ours.

    are you able to give some instances (no names) of these
    ?

    i haven't seen any examples, the only examples i see is this forum is about the most lively (with many regulars and lots of lurkers) forum around, all the others i hang around are so inactive as to not attract new chatters and ahve no relevence.

    and if we aren't atracting then we are stagnating.

    also to me seems to be too much emphasis on people projecting their religous type beliefs and being seen to be different, into permaculture which is there for everybody not just those with self interests.

    have a look at how many members there are here there aren't a lot of them contributing on a regular basis say once weekly or monthly even, lots of them are new comers to permaculture, and are infuenced by the aspects of what they see in posts and most likley feel intimidated, as some posters push their own political barrows so to speak, or take venom to another for daring to be different.

    sadly we won't get the change we all desire in this planet at the current rate, as there will only ever be those few of us. only need to look around our suburbs and see how relevent permaculture is, it's just not happening.

    there are people out ther who want to get into doing things better but don't get interested when all they see is the push for courses and paying money, i have had e/milas over the years from strangers asking where they can chat without this aspect of pemaculture raising its head, to tell you the truth there is nowhere.

    i come back to my favourite way K.I.S.S (keep it simple stupid)

    the seasons greeting to all

    len
     
  3. Anastasia

    Anastasia Junior Member

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    I don't think it has. There would be more people identifying as "organic gardeners" than permies I reckon. Mainly because "organic" is in the consciousness of the mainstream, whereas permaculture is not. I see organic gardening as a part of permaculture, where permaculture is the whole and gardening one aspect of it, and to me organics fit in well with the permie philosophy. So I think that permaculture has probably added to the organic gardening movement, rather than taking away if that makes sense?

    As to the rest of the post, well I'm not entirely sure what this is about, perhaps the roundup post? I don't really feel I am able to answer that question, as I'm only a newbie myself :).
     
  4. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I think there's a bit of an 'us & them' about it all. And that doesn't have to be a bad thing. BD is also making inroads.....I know a couple down the road from me that were organic growers who then went into permaculture to now big believers in BD.

    I think it all comes down to the individual...their circumstances etc....what works for them and their mindset.
     
  5. MonteGoulding

    MonteGoulding Junior Member

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    To be honest I have been quite surprised by this aspect of permaculture. I've done a one day intro to permaculture course which I managed to get for free because my Mum is on the board of the Workers Education Association in Adelaide. It's not feasable for me to spend over $1000 to do a PDC when I'm only looking at applying that knowledge to my own suburban home and perhaps a community garden in the near future. The Gardening Australia DVD is a great intro on suburban permaculture but I really think there is a major gap between that and PDCs. Some books fit into that gap but a DVD series or short correspondence course would be great.
     
  6. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Got $50? https://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/audio.htm
    Actually, I don't know how much he is selling it for in Aussie dollars. I paid $40 something US to some online place. Pretty good value...
    Having said that, you really need to go do a PDC, even if you never leave your own backyard. Really...
     
  7. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    To have a bite at Mike's question. Nah, if someone thinks they are doing Permaculture who am I to tell them different. Anyone of you could come to the place I am working on and tell me dozens of ways I could better implement the principles of P. (And of course I would welcome that!)
    As the old bearded guy in the cardigan says, organic gardening is but a shirt in the wardrobe full of shirts belonging to the good Permaculture designer.
     
  8. Jim Bob

    Jim Bob Junior Member

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    I don't really care whether they call it organic, permaculture, enlightened agriculture, long-term capitalism, or boonfoggle. What matters is the right actions. And actions matter the most if we're trying to spread ideas, because the best teacher is one who teaches by example. Consider for examle the Mormons. They go out in pairs and knock on 50-100 doors each day, five days a week, four weeks a month for ten months. So they knock on 10,000-20,000 doors in that time, and on average here in Australia they get 5 conversions in that time. Preaching to people who don't want to listen simply isn't an effective way of changing their way of thinking. I'd hope that our ideas are more appealing than Mormonism, but still, the point is demonstrated - it's hard to change people's way of thinking, their way of life.

    So rather than worrying about whether it's called permaculture or whatever, probably better to live your life as you think good. When people visit you or eat your produce and comment on it, tell them a bit about it then. I think you'll score more conversions than 5 in ten or twenty thousand that way.
     
  9. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Good quote Richard, says it all.

    Corny, I have always found the BD stuff fascinating and not mentioned much here.

    floot
     
  10. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I agree Jim Bob...who cares what it's called. Everyone is striving for the same end.

    Floot...I know next to nothing abot BD, but from spending a couple of hours talking to the guy down the road (how horrible I can't remember his name!) I got the feeling that BD was a more 'pure' form of organics. Everything is natural...if you have a compost bin it's not made out of plastic...it's all natural materials. It would be good to have someone join the forum who knows more about BD.

    I really must get myself an invite to wander up and have a look at his property.
     
  11. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Did mention Biodynamics last year but got a negative response....there is an esoteric influence with BD from it's founder Rudolf Steiner...but BD works in commercial situations as well as home gardens.
    Cathy
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes jimbob,

    it has to be lead by example, i do waht i do in my little plot and when others see, feel or taste it then they ask and then i can encourage starting simply.

    at the end of the day a name for a process can end up a meaningless catch cry, if people aren't being influenced by simple changes.

    as for bd i got no idea but if it works for those who use it then i say good and well, same with the lunar planters if it works for them i'll support it before i'd ever think knocking it.

    len
     
  13. Anastasia

    Anastasia Junior Member

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    Perhaps the reason BD practices aren't enthusiastically embraced by permies is because there is a definite resistance towards linking spiritual stuff with permaculture so as to not make it seem the refuge of extremists and hippies ;). There is no reason why you can't be spiritual and a permie, but you don't have to be spiritual to be a permie. Whereas BD principles, as Cathy said, are based on a lot of esoteric traditions. And honestly while I don't mind a bit of esoteria myself ;) I prefer to understand the science behind how something works than believing that the energies of a particular object are better at transforming poo into compost when there is a scientific explanation (sorry got that from Organic Growing with Worms by David Murphy). So BD principles do work but not necessarily for the reasons they espouse. And I think that turns some scientific minded people off.
     
  14. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Anastasia,

    From my reading I wholeheartedly agree on the BD. I dont know if science has caught up with a lot of the practices of Biodynamics yet. It does seem more 'broadacre' than other methods.

    Four years ago my family did 11,000 kms in a month from Cairns back to Cairns thru inland eastern australia and off highway one. I was surprised at the amount of times I saw the whirlpool/aerators on farms including one on a mixed farm near Moree.

    I made some ''500'' once in some buffalo horns and duly sprayed it all over my garden and surrounds. I cannot quantify any results as the fertility of my property increased annually. I have been off my farm for most of past 6 years but the fertility and production have not declined. :)

    So whatever BD-permie-keyline-organic system you are using is a vast improvement on previous practices and wont hurt the soils.

    floot
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    anastasia,

    it's those spiritual thingies that i alluded to in my earlier post, they raise their head so to speak in a lot in permy circles in one forum this division between the different codes wrecked a very viable forum, as the openely tragetted otehrs who didn't conform and openly sort to start factional forums so lots of good open chat ruined by peddlers of other thinking, from where i saw it damage was done that may never be undone, like peddling the need for courses lots out there looking to permaculture but on a grass roots simple basis, i have had many e/mails over the years alluding to those less than desirable attributes, but alas at the time i had nowhere to refer them to it was very political so to speak, flashes of it appear here, but the way the forum is set up probably lessons the impact.

    but the venom in that one forum seems to forever driven people awayand not only from the forum seemingly from their permaculture persuits, it is techinically deceased and has been for around 5 years now when all this stuff came along.

    sad but true

    len
     
  16. fiona

    fiona Junior Member

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    A big benefit of people saying they're into Permaculture even if they're more into organic veggie gardening rather than the whole Permaculture thing, is that they are more likely to learn more about Permaculture this way. For example, if browsing in a bookshop, they may be more likely to pick up a book about Permaculture rather than just organic gardening. Or if doing a net search or looking for a course or a local group to join. This means that in the end, they may move closer and closer to Permaculture - so it would open up more opportunities to learn about it.

    Fiona
     

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