weeds and permaculture

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by Peter Warne, Jan 3, 2005.

  1. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    Amanda, the interaction between impoverished soils and weeds is very interesting.

    Where I’m living, the original rainforest recycled nutrients from the subsoil to the leaf litter layer. This cycle was broken when the rainforest was cleared. Nutrients – especially alkaline minerals – were leached beyond the shallow root zones of the pasture grasses that replaced the rainforest. Yes, the soil became more acidic – down to an average of pH 4.5 (but I’ve seen as low as pH 3.9).

    Undoubtedly, the most sustainable way to reestablish the health of this former rainforest soil is to reestablish the deep-rooted trees that catch and recycle minerals from deep in the subsoil back up to the litter layer. There are native rainforest pioneers that can handle the acid soils (i.e grow out of sub-soil road-side embankments) and can initiate the regeneration process: blackwood, Commersonia, native raspberry, sandpaper fig etc.


    Unfortunately lantana suppresses the regeneration of the rainforest – including competing with re-colonising pioneers - by forming very dense thickets that trees can’t grow through. Therefore the tree mineral recycling system can’t reestablish, and therefore the soils can’t repair.

    So in the case of lantana, it’s the opposite of what you’re suggesting. This shrubby weed is actually maintaining a degraded soil state by not allowing a soil regenerating forest system to reestablish.

    Some people have argued that the topsoil under lantana is good, and useful for cropping once you clear it. Superficially the soil texture under lantana appears ok with a humus layer from leaf drop. But soil tests indicate a high acidity and low levels of alkaline minerals, especially deficient in potassium. This dovetails into this absence of deep roots to bring-up nutrients from the subsoil - lantana is comparatively shallow rooted.

    It appears to be a similar situation with invasive blackberry in temperate Australia where it can invade undisturbed forest - forming an understorey that prevents the regeneration of the sclerophyll trees (which require sunlight for regeneration). By preventing the regeneration of the forest the blackberry is also disrupting the trees deep-rooted mineral recycling system.

    Some people believe that somehow weeds are correcting the damage caused by people. But the reality is that we have pioneer native plants that are in context with the local ecology. Rampant introduced weeds appear to be contributing to degradation by destroying the structure of the native ecosystems.

    Introducing a rampant weed to a native ecosystem is the ecological equivalent of introducing a killer flu to an indigenous people with no previous exposure. Native ecologies have no resistance to many rampant weeds. Also many weeds are often toxic to native wildlife with no evolutionary exposure.

    Lantana, croften weed, moth vine are just some of the more toxic plants that native wildlife here generally don’t eat. This in turn puts more pressure on the surviving native plants. The native rainforest grasses that manage to find a weed free space are over-grazed by native herbivores like pademelon wallabies, which are hard-pressed to find their original food due to the weed wipeout. So weeds have a cascading impact on the native ecology.

    While I know permaculture isn’t responsible for these particular weeds, the network still needs to be cognitive of weed risks, and show maturity if we are to successfully provide a total systems approach.

    We have many lessons on what not to do with plant introduction - so why risk repeating the mistakes of the past? As McMinn pointed out, there are many introduced domesticated food plants that are not a significant weed risk, and their use should be encouraged. However, with rampant self-regenerating plants, it's better to use natives which have native herbivores that can keep them in check. It should be basic permaculture principle.

    Cheers.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    good one pete,

    i was always led to believe that lantana would only grow on good soil, so ther ya go always somethin' new to learn hey?

    our land here is degraded riparian rainforest land, and the only soil now on sight is actually sub-soil as the original top soil has erroded away over the past 100-150 years of clear felling & bad management.

    i look at the pre-emergent type plants like blady grass and the black acacias as being natures way of reclaiming the land and regenerating it.

    our plan is to plant as much of the larger eucalypt and whatever rainforest trees we can get for the very same reason you mention. our big step here was to rip along contours so letting water into the soil instead of it merely running down the slopes, this worked far better than wee could ever have expected. our tree plantings are now getting to the stage where they can be noticed but one in the far future the benfits of those planting will be obvious.

    we don't seem to have an acid problem, too lazy to test but everything we plant grows very well provided we can keep the water up to it in the initial stages, and we use raised beds for veges etc.,. so mostly the natural soil has little impact. we have grown many things straight into the soil in the rows of mulch and gotten great results with potatoes, tomatoes, beans, capsicums, brassicas and the onion family sweet potatoes do realy well.

    len :D
     
  3. AmandaM

    AmandaM Junior Member

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    Peter,

    Perhaps I obscured my meaning a bit rambling on about natural regeneration processes. I realise that Lantana et al are highly undesirable and I ascribe them with no special powers to start or aid in the process of regeneration. I stand by my comments however, unclear though they may have been, there is nowhere in nature where man has not specifically changed the environment in some way that a monoculture exists.
    Obviously it would be better if;
    a. The rainforests had never been cleared
    b. Species such as Lantana and the like had never been introduced and,
    c. Successive governments and farming groups had not taken to poison as a means of controlling weeds.
    My point is, these things have happened, and we are pushing the proverbial uphill if we don't stop bickering about who did it and just start fixing it. I absolutely don’t advocate leaving things as they are in the expectation of some future equilibrium being reached – even though I know it would somehow. Your point about native peoples being exposed to hitherto unknown viruses is certainly pertinent to the argument, but extrapolate it out and observe that some of those people survived because they had a natural immunity to the viruses and their children inherited their resistance, and thus is the story of the origin of species and the descent of man. Darwinian theory in no way makes the above scenario just or equitable, only explainable. In the distant past, there have been massive changes to the vegetation on the planet, caused by fires, changes in the atmospheric conditions, ice-ages, human incursion and so on. They did sort themselves out given time, your scenario in which lantana from now on prevents any other plant from establishing itself in that spot can’t work scientifically.

    I disagree with your assertion that the most sustainable way to regenerate is through the use of the trees that bring the lime minerals back to the surface. The definition of sustain is to undergo, experience or suffer (injury, loss etc.); endure without giving way or yielding. Our attempts to revegetate rainforest (where we have failed to acknowledge and address the change in the soil that our incursion has created in the first place) have not succeeded to date, and will continue to not succeed because the good plants are disadvantaged in favour of the weeds. For something to be described as sustainable, it would at least have to work! The top 10cm of soil with it’s PHs of 4.5 and lower are going to continue to provide a hospitable environment for the lantana to be rampant and the deep rooted trees (assuming they survive) will take decades before they start to make an impact on the soil nutrients, in the meantime, the lantana will continue to do what it does best in that environment, which is choke the living you know what out of every other plant in the forest. The fact that some Australian natives “tolerate” acid soils is hardly an argument not to try to repair the damage through lime minerals applied to the surface and to rely on these so-called pioneer species to adjust the environment. There is a vast chasm between a plant tolerating a condition and a plant thriving in said condition. Tolerance just means it won’t die straight away (all other things being equal), its hardly going to put up a genuine fight against the plants that love that environment. I can’t see the benefit in this almost religious conviction that the only acceptable way to repair a situation is to rely on native plants and animals to do the work for us. We used unnatural means to create the imbalance in the first place and, as unpalatable as the concept is to many people, we are going to have to use (initially at least) unnatural means to reverse it. The fact that the organic standard allows for the use of lime minerals in their basic form to be spread should be enough to acquit them of any potential environmental harm.

    Someone said (can't think who originally), the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over and yet expect a different result. This applies equally to farmers and governments as it does to conservation groups, the only difference being that you and I and the people reading this discussion are naturally biased towards the environmental lobby because they are well intentioned and we agree with their objectives.

    If the Lantana is suppressing natural regeneration of the forest, pull it out or slash it down, but it isn't enough just to plant your pioneer trees and shrubs any more, they can't compete with a plant that is ideally suited to soils with PHs below 4.8. We MUST address the condition of the top 10 - 15cm of soil, that is the area that contains the seed-bank of all the acid-loving exotics. Change that and you change the odds against lantana and back towards natives.

    It is trite in the extreme to caution gardeners and farmers to select only species that have no tendency to be “weedy” – ANY plant has the ability and tendency to be weedy if it happens to find itself in its ideal environment and surrounded by plants that are most emphatically NOT in their ideal environment. Plants are biologically programmed for survival and every means of propagation available to plants will have an environment in which it could become a problem.

    I experimented along these lines in a small way in my backyard in Sydney - admittedly, an easily manageable environment. When we moved in, the yard was completely overgrown with lantana, morning glory, wandering jew (introduced type), and a few other ones I don't know the names of that were just as awful. So I did what every good gardener does, and I pulled it all out and put it in the green-waste bin. I yanked every piece of it out (and from my neighbours place too) and yet for 3 years it grew back, just as perky as you like and choked all the natives that I so carefully planted. I would pull, it would re-establish. This was my insanity phase.

    I read about the Albrecht method of soil analysis and decided to give it a go. I took a sample of the soil, sent it off for analysis and spread the recommended ameliorants. Simple and fairly cheap when you're dealing with 400 square metres, but enough to demonstrate the need to address the soil conditions before expecting plants to survive or thrive. Obviously the lantana et al grew back a little, a few spindly seedlings that I pulled out initially, but eventually just left alone to see what would happen. Nothing happened, they remained small bushes that behaved themselves much in the way I imagine they did when they were first introduced as garden ornamentals. In the end I pulled them out and they never grew back once the garden was mature, because I am conditioned not to like them, and my neighbours were still vulnerable to the seeds that they would spread.

    Now I have taken this experiment into the fields. We have purchased 530 acres of subalpine farming land with no remnant forest, but some heavily timbered areas that look to be around 50 - 60 years old, predominantly black wattle and snow gums. We do different weeds in the southern tablelands, and the native vegetation is eucalypt forest, but the principle is the same, fix the soil and the weeds will take care of themselves. I have no interest in whom the original perpetrator of this environmental disaster was, they didn’t know any better – I have made fixing it my challenge and my joy.
     
  4. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    permaculture and weeds

    Hi gardenlen,

    Sounds like you doing well with your plans for regenerating your riparian sites. Here we have river she-oak, which I would heartly reccommend for kick-starting riparian sites (if locally occuring). Bladey grass is often an indicator of a high fire frequency and low soil fertility. In that situation i'd also be looking for a local riparian Acacia to plant.

    Hi again Amanda,

    I think we have a consensus that some of the nastier weeds – such as Lantana, blackberry – are highly undesirable and should never have been introduced.

    Given that we know this risk, surely it’s reasonable to ensure that we do not release more plague-plants into the environment – especially if plague plants are destroying finely balanced self-maintaining, productive and diverse ecologies. N.B. Native ecologies that seem very similar to the self-replicating productive ecologies promoted as permaculture in the late 1970’s – especially noteworthy now that we have a finer appreciation of the useful value of many native plants.

    It’s sobering to consider that the resultant impacts of our major weeds are a far cry from their humble beginnings. The scale of these infestations maybe hard to comprehend: 4 million hectares infested with Lantana; and, 8 million hectares infested with blackberry.

    To regenerate the natural habitat, using the recognized bush regeneration method (i.e. removing the weeds and allowing native succession to occur), may require about one person per hectare until it’s reestablished, and in many cases requiring ongoing maintenance. Where are we going to get 12 million people to regenerate the bush?! Sure, on gentle slopes and flat country some tractor slashing maybe possible, but the vast majority of these infestations are also occurring on country with poor access.
    Clearly, this is not going to happen on any significant scale. In other words, weeds have made some habitats virtual “basket-case” ecosystems.

    On the issue of trees and recycling of nutrients from the subsoil into leaf litter, I don’t know what your problem is here Amanda. I certainly concur with Holmgren and Mollison on the value of trees in regards to building soil fertility.

    From what I understand, the Albrecht method that you cited is about precisely identifying the mineral deficiencies for agriculture etc, and then correcting these deficiencies with specific mineral fertilizers.

    But I prefer to use the ecosystem to repair degraded sites where-ever possible, especially in the outer zones (IV and V), and hence the use of trees for reestablishing nutrient cycles in former forest sites. The renown loamy kraznozem soils that occur here have developed from basaltic rock in conjunction with rainforests over millions of years and are up to 80 meters deep in some places. It’s impractical and unnecessary to use fertilizer or liming agents on poor access / low return sites, and also given the scale, the most viable method is via biological methods.

    Amanda, the suppression of rainforest regeneration is not primarily a soil fertility issue. As I listed previously, we have low soil fertility tolerant native rainforest pioneers. Also, contrary to your assumption, rainforest has been successfully regenerated in many places by simply removing weeds and allowing native succession to occur i.e. Rotary Park (Lismore), Wingham Brush (near Taree) to name a couple of examples. These regeneration projects also indicate that rainforest would regenerate naturally if it wasn’t for the weeds.

    While rainforests and a few other loamy sites inherently have higher fertility soils, most of Australia is well-known for its’ low fertility soils. In fact, it’s the low soil fertility of many habitats that can protect them from exotic plant invasion, because many of the introduced plants can’t handle the low soil fertility that the native plants are adapted too - especially in heath and sclerophyll woodlands on sandy soils. And in these situations, raising soil fertility can actually make some places more weed susceptible.

    Cheers.
     
  5. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I wonder how many hours of labor it would take to restore most areas simply by removal of invasives, compared to the time it took to destroy the area in the first place?

    Still, Man hasn't learned much. Here in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S., the two major invasives are blackberry and Scotch broom. A few years ago, the government released an insect that eats the flower of the Scotch broom so seeds aren't produced. Then they rip and tear and shear off the trees on steep slopes, etc, and leave the land open and bare. The main invasive that will move in will be the blackberry. Of the two, the Scotch broom is the easier to deal with: it can be cut down, pulled out or fertilized out of existence. The blackberry can't be pulled out, dug out, shaded out or mulched out (they wouldn't mulch, anyway). The only way to destroy it is by use of herbicides. So, they are opening the way for more blackberry than ever before.

    I think you have to pass a stupid test before you can be in government.

    Sue
     
  6. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    Plague monocultures replacing indigenous biodiversity on the Pacific Northwest of the US sounds too similar to what’s happening on this side of the Pacific with Lantana and blackberry. Whatever the solution (oh dear! - definitely not easy), do we have continue spreading weed plagues to get the message?

    For our own self-evaluation - it’s interesting how these major introduced plant plagues seem to be very common in lands recently invaded by English speaking people. Australia, New Zealand, USA, Hawaii, South Africa are all experiencing severe weed invasions. It’s like the English invaders marked their territory by not only subjugating the indigenous people and clearing productive indigenous landscapes - but also by introducing invasive plants. I guess they thought that many of these weeds were going to be beneficial. The path to weed hell is paved with good intentions.

    I’d like to suggest that we include a new principle in permaculture:

    “To adopt a precautionary principle with using introduced plants. If we can not ensure that an introduced, non-native plant will not rampantly spread beyond the boundaries of a permaculture system that it’s not used.”

    This is also an issue of respect for the rights of surrounding landholders. No matter how good we think a species might be what right do we have to introduce a plant that will invade our neighbors place?

    Also, what about the rights of indigenous people? It’s such arrogance to displace useful native plants with weed plagues. In my area the local Bundjalung would be hard pressed to get a decent feed of Mundaramn (a native raspberry that would otherwise be very common) thanks to displacement by Lantana. The native environment is integrated into indigenous culture, and weed plagues contribute to cultural genocide by displacing native habitats containing traditionally used indigenous plants and native animals.
     
  7. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    handling weeds

    This discussion is coming alive again, and getting more interesting as it goes.

    I’d like to chuck in a report on some practical work which I have been engaged in with my wife Gigi.

    We are situated in a valley, in the afternoon shadow of Blue Knob, near Nimbin, so we have the Nightcap Nat Park virtually on three sides.

    We have about 150 m of gully, running up from a dam to the top boundary of our place. Above that it’s cattle pasture – never sprayed, but a bit weedy. Our gully is full of acacia melanoxylon – sally wattle or blackwood – a few other rainforest pioneers like cheesewood and brown kurrajong, and lots of lantana and camphor laurel.

    After doing a rainforest regeneration course with a regen expert, Jenny Ford, we undertook to gradually clear the weeds from the gully and let natives come up as they can.

    In the last few days we have had bash at the lantana, starting from the dam and working uphill. In 3 or 4 two hours sessions we have cleared about 40 m of lantana. We pull them out by hand, lift them with a mattock, or the big ones we yank out with a drag chain to the car. The dead lantana and the new we chop up and drop on the ground as mulch. I have found about 8 species of rainforest plants coming up underneath the mess of lantana, including 2 epiphytes and 3 new trees that we have identified using the red book. This brings our count to about 34 self propagated local rainforest plants spotted on our 14 acre block. So we are seeing living evidence of the existence of the seed bed, and hoping that our cleaning up will help the forest to re-establish itself as we keep cleaning up. We do use glyphosate when we have to, eg with camphor laurels.

    So a healthy forest should take care of zones 5 and upwards, while we cultivate our couple of acres in the middle.

    I know one can despair looking at the global scene, but when I look down into the shade of the liberated trees into the gully at our place, and see all the natives coming back up, I find it hard to be pessimistic.

    Cheers

    Peter Warne

    PS Incidentally, can anyone suggest some understorey plants we could plant in there, just to spur things along a bit?
     
  8. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    Hi Peter, thanks for initiating this forum topic.

    Sounds like you're going real well with that bush regen' on your place! You're only 15 km's away by the crow. So i'm happy to share a few suggestions for rainforest understorey.

    I know palm-lily's are currently fruiting (come-up readily from seed), finger lime is also currently fruiting (and is native to Blue Knob!), blue lilly-pilly, and I'd just be roaming around to see what else in fruit, like native solanums (not usually edible, but have medicinal properties). Also Bolwarra (great for a spicey and sweet fruit - at least according to my bushie tastebuds) are due to start fruiting in May. For propagation from division straight into the ground during wet weather I'd try: native ginger, and rf groundcovers: native Lobelia, wallaby grass, basket grass and gota kola (it's native here as well).

    If the soil moisture levels are good it would be worthwhile trying some direct sowing straight into the mulch layers. But of course you get a better seed strike rate in a propagation tray.

    Catch you 'round.
     
  9. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day peter w,

    have you researched what could/should be there? i did a lot of my hardwood/weed research in the tafe library when i was doing a course, you can join up to use their library i think.

    i don't know much but things like lomandra, the native plectrantus's and native wandering jew's could be incorporated they will trap debris and hold in moisture at ground evel, i'm sure there are many more and they should also provide habitat for the returning fauna as well as help prevent regrowth of the undesirables. there are some very spiky wood plants out there as well that provide good cover for the wrens and tit's can't think of their names but ahve them listed on our tree plantings page at the property section.

    i'm now talking with our local land care group so hope to be able to get help to get more diversity in our plantings maybe even get help to on ideas on desilting the creek so the platypus can come back. we have a number of acacias on sight still yet to source a local casuarina (forest oak i think is the one).

    also found you know those wild flower thingies get a purple flower looks like a paper flower they are a soft woody thing not particularly pretty looking we have let these grow on our dam wall (well they decided that) and now they provide habitat for a couple of new back in the place birds.

    len :)
     
  10. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    gardenlen, each site has its' specific suite of plants. Gympie would have a slightly different species being about 150 km's further north, but there are a few that i know occur up there as well as down here in the riparian zone.

    Spot-on with Lomandra, plectranthus (great for nectar flow in young systems) and I use the native wandering jew leaf-tips and blue flowers in salads (nice with a sour dressing). We have Eucalyptus tereticornis as a common riverine riparian species down here which is also habitat for kaolas. Scrub cherry (Syzygium australe) - with edible fruit - is also a common riparian species down here. Black bean (Castanospermum australe) is also common on riparian zones, and the flowers have an excellent nectar flow but the starchy seed has to be VERY well prepared to make it edible (only tried it once after preperation - quite risky with toxins without specific Aboriginal guidance). Sandpaper fig (Ficus coronata) is an excellent edible fruit that is a pioneer and grows in riparian sites and frost hardy to -5 c. But for soil catching (i.e. biological swale value) you can't go past the roots of Moreton bay fig - and a supermarket tree for native birds, and chooks. Not sure, but you might find that Macadmaia integrifolia and Backhousia citriodora are native to your area (what can I say - both very useful plants! - love the nectar flow on both as well as the food and oils value!). Round lime (Citrus australis) is thorny as hell and GREAT for nesting small insectivorous birds that clean-up insect pests like vacuume cleaners. I've also seen warrigal greens (Tetragonia tetragoniodes) in dry rainforest NW of Brisbane. It's the most resilant leafy greens that i know, and a great groundcover to boot. Also found the Kangaroo Vine (Cissus antarctica) better eating up your way than down here, and it's also good for basketry.

    For a good source of info on what woody rainforest plants are native to your area try "Trees & shrubs in rainforests of NSW and Southern Q'ld" by Williams et al.
     
  11. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day pete,

    i'll have to look into that kangaroo vine, will keep all that ifo you sent and try to source that reference source. we have warrigal greens up this way they tend to die off in the long hot dry summers but reseed to return in the cooler wetter autumn.

    couple other things i thought of for peter to research would be the dianella's and native cordylines (stricta), the dianella is an edible or that waht i was told on abush food outing i did try the berries not bad to eat still breathing so must be safe hey at least they will provide food for birds and native rodents etc.,. surprisingly lots of stuff is fairly common between nthrn nsw and se/qld coastal areas. i do try to source indemic but sometimes you just gotta go with a native that won't conflict.

    tried the lilly pillies but to date the frost keeps getting them and they're supposed to be frost hardy dunno?? will give them more tries in time.

    len
     
  12. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    thanks Peter H, Len and Amanda

    Wow - what a wealth of information i've got from the last few contributions - many thanks Peter H, Len and Amanda. I'm going to research a few of the plants that were mentioned. Funnily, lomandra already grows on the edge of the trees near the dam, in a place which has not been overtaken by lantana.

    Cordylines yes, we've got a few growing round the place but the best performer is one i placed under the blackwoods on the edge of the gully, so obviously more should go in. The native wandering jew grows all around our house, so I can easily transplant some down there. The soil under the leaf litter is quite moist, so it should be quite easy. I'll also try putting some in a salad Peter, it will certainly look exotic.

    I've got 10 pencil cedars to put somewhere. I've had a lot of trouble planting pencil cedars in front of the house. The spot is exposed to the afternoon sun from the west, but I'm uncertain whether it's the heat or if the soil is too acid. I'm tempted to put a few in the newly cleared space. Not understorey, but they'd look lovely when they eventually poke up above the blackwood.

    We've also got a largish area (perhaps 10 m along the bank on our side) which is dominated by one of the native raspberries. I haven't found a single raspberry on it, and it's as scratchy as hell. I know it's a native, but it seems to be too dominant, and it's vigorously throwing out new shoots in all directions, so it will clearly spread. We hacked into some of it with a brushcutter today, but I fear it will come back double the strength. I know it's said to be good for habitat, but I haven't seen any nests or other signs of birds in there.

    Anyway, the job is inspiring - just seeing into that beautiful dark gully is a great reward for our work.

    Ciao, Peter W
     
  13. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Do you know the scientic name/variety of the Lantana that is overrunning your area? I am just curious to know if it's the same stuff that I have to overwinter in the garage under a heat lamp.

    Sue
     
  14. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day sue,

    as far as i know this is the one we have
    weed of the month

    Lantana camara (var. camara)

    very prolific weed over here, bought in for use in gardens way back when used mostly as a hedge plant, think it is either from south america or south africa.

    len :(
     
  15. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    Hi gardenlen, I’ve eaten Dianella berries with no ill effects (local Midgenbil people told me they ate the fruit). However, I’d be very cautious in applying this elsewhere because Dianella seed is reported to be toxic - at least in some locations with some species, and I did hear of a dog that died after eating the berries (admittedly it a ate a lot). But Dianella leaves are popular in basketry, and are used for erosion control on slopes. Also I was curious about your perspective on Cordyline stricta – as I find them somewhat insipid around here, and they’re rarely cited as a bushfood.

    Regarding frost and lilly pilly’s, I find that a nurse crop of Acacia is best for establishing the more frost sensitive rf species where frost is an issue. Planting of frost sensitive rainforest species can occur after a few years – when wattles have a bit of height. The wattles can be culled out (can be a bit competitive ultimately) when the rf trees have a bit of height and ‘skirts’ are insulating the trunk from freezing. Acacia frimbriata is a versatile favorite, and you may find it locally native.

    Peter W - just to heighten appreciation of that prickly native raspeberry. My favourite species is Rubus rosifolius, rose-leaf bramble or "mundarum" to the Bundjalung. It fruits in spring and is sweetest a few days after a shower of rain when it plumps up. My favourite native rapsberry dish is mundarum with macadamia cream (raw macadamia paste blended with a dash of water and honey). The mildly aromatic leaf is also an excellent medicine (as herb tea), especially for treating vomiting and is soothing to the bowels. Probably due to the astringency - but the essential may also play a role. The other native raspberries are also good flavoured.

    Sounds like your pencil cedars may not have been hardened-off (?). (I wouldn't think its' an acid soil issue.) Also they get quite tall (although very graceful!), and I'd be careful about planting them too close to the house.

    ***********
    Just on the main topic of weeds etc - a few more thoughts:

    I love all these tangents of refinement in building a symbiotic relationship with native biodiversity. It’s a wonderful process and I’d like to acknowledge indigenous Australian’s as my guide on this journey.

    I think permaculture has so much to offer restoration ecology. Restoration ecology is often considered as primarily repairing nature – but should this exclude providing resources for humans? Afterall, humans have harvested and managed native ecologies – a native permaculture - for tens of thousands of years.

    When planting an extensive species range of multiple-use native plants (food, medicine, timber etc) it includes various plant forms and eco-niches - often creating a complex structure resembling many features of the original ecosystem – much more so than just a tree plantation!

    The inspirational structured forest edge (per Permaculture 1) has so much to offer for more than just human use. Endangered wildlife also benefit from highly productive edges.

    When I heard Bill speaking at the Autonomous House, Sydney University in 1978, I also heard at the same workshop one of the Bradley sisters, a pioneer of bush regeneration in Australia. It was so obvious then that the two fields are perfectly complimentary. Over the years I think many people have realized this and have been quietly combining ecological restoration with permaculture.

    In its delivery permaculture has the potential to have a bigger vision on integration with the native ecosystems. While I’m far from anti introduced plants (just no invasives), how can one not admire the multiple benefits of useful native plants - especially regarding the inherent biodiversity values? It’s classic permaculture to have plants with multiple uses – including specific habitat for native wildlife. This doesn’t threaten food production. Far from it – native foodplants are complimentary to non-invasive exotics. Natives are specifically adapted to site conditions and generally more resilient. And low maintenance local foodplants have NO environmental weed risk.

    And surely if native food plants have lower maintenance requirements because they are inherently adapted to our local environment - isn’t that an ideal permaculture advantage as low input equates to low energy expenditure? Ignorance was understandable in the late 70’s, when very little research had been undertaken into native Australian foods – but with the bushfood boom of the 1980’s there’s no excuse. It just requires some local ethnobotanical research. And it’s a principle no matter where we are on the planet.

    Also, I find the sexing-up of plague-pants with terms like “wild nature” just plain offensive. How far do we want to go? How about describing dioxin spills as the “new chemistry” or climate change as “wild climate”!? Sure, when it’s fait accompli - we have no choice but to adapt, but lets not glorify environmental tragedy!! Especially with plague monocultures displacing diverse and useful ecosystems being so contradictory to permaculture. Also to sex-up environmental disaster verges on approval - succour for environmental vandalisim.
     
  16. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    Interesting course

    This may be of interest to any of you who live close enough to take part. Peter Hardwick is giving a six afternoon course on Regeneration, Bushfoods, and Permaculture, starting 10 May. The course is being held on Tuesday afternoons at Djambung Gardens Permaculture Centre in Nimbin, northern NSW.

    If you've followed the recent developments of the long running weeds & PC discussion, you will have seen that Peter Hardwick has an enormous amount of experience and knowledge in all three of the topics covered in the course.

    Bushfoods, regen and permaculture, taken in one course, seem to me to be a combination that is more relevant and important than ever before, with the ever more scary news of the disasters looming with climate change, the oil/energy crisis etc etc. All three topics deal directly with the single question of just how we fit in as one (of the many) species on this planet.

    Hoping to see some of you there.

    Peter Warne

    (If you want more info, contact me at: [email protected])
     
  17. funkyfungus

    funkyfungus Junior Member

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    This has been an interesting discussion on the weed issue

    however id like to point out a few issue i think have been overlooked

    Firstly is how little we know about how ecologies work and about what was there at its peak of diversity (id say original but whats original?? even before 1788 thats another debate)

    So while we are concerned about invavsisve exotics we must remmber that just as much can be lost with 'natives' including indigenous species

    Macadamias are an example where somebody living in the native range and wanting to plant macadamias for forest regeneration could do more for the environmnet by not bringing in outside seed if possible
    Macadamias original homland has been extensively cleared and the few original remnats cling to existence in rainforest remnants
    These wild types hold a greater amount of genetic diversity that may prove invaluable in future breeding programs should a disease hit the global macamadiam industry
    Pollen flow from orchards or feral populations will hybridise and given the ratio of trees probably swamp the local populations breeding them out of existence
    Most macadamia variety lines come from a small number of accessions made a long time ago. They would in no way represent the ful genetic diversity of the species
    try and find anuy local populations and get propagating material. A local botanist may be able to assist you

    The other thing is the issue of bushfoods and in the broader sense exotics of marginal utility.
    Very much like Inga spp. i have found the majority of 'edible' bushfoods to be underwhelming.
    Where they are endemic or where their utility is developed by selction i can understand the usages but other times they can just take up space better occupied by either a tree you will use or else indigenous vegetation
    Finger limes, macadamias and bunya nuts have all demsonstarted that they are plants orf merit that belong alongside the list of species you could reccomend to any system worldwide
    But the majority of them are of marginal interets to anyone but those with some sort of cultural attachmnet be they pioneering descendents or indigenous clans.
    I feel like the overstating or overemphasis on bushfoods is somehow more an expression of misguided patriotism than a reality of their culinary value.

    I belive in the concept of increased diveristy in designed symptoms but the connections between these must be strong. And these plants should actually be used or esle we are just mainating elaborate botanic collections and not actually being sustainable
    In the event food shortages did occur i dont doubt that the lilly pillies and brazil cherries would be pulled out by the roots to make room for Macadamias and Apples.

    I think somehow this should be incorporated voluntarily by us as a movemnet.
    In the begginning the novelty of exploration and collection introduces us to the thousands of useful species available to us but as the system settles down and we get into actually living the lifestyle a good number of these fall by the wayside and we gravitate back to many of those that are well known for their quality and utility. In this succession i think we need to be responsible and remove unutilised planst from the broader system
    keep them as specimen planst if we must for sending to better places but otherwise replace it with something of use.

    We need to be disciplined and make robust systems that feed people and dont generate unnecessary weeds ( a few are inevitable and some will be tolerated for utility or sentimental reasons by whichever society we live in) . Weeds get away because we arent there to nip them in the bud
    there are the bird spread weeds that are out ther enow but the sleeper weeds or creeper weeds that spread slowly but just as effectively are products of our inattention and inaction.
    The creep of Jacaranda into dry rainforest remnats is a tragedy happening as we watch - many blinded by their beauty. It took 100 years for the camphor infestation to develop, a hundred years of lost opportunity.
    Diversity and the web that binds it must be 3 dimensional not superficial.
    You can have 10 acres of rampant mostly unutilised permaculture scrub
    or you can have an intensive well designed 1/2 acre giving the same yields of things you actually use and leave the other 9 1/2 acres to regeneration and cabinet timbers.

    and if you worry about weeds at all please dont buy a bush block!
    trust me they are harder to develp than a worn out ex agricultural space.
    Theres so much trashed land out there in need of habitation and TLC that theres really no excudse to be moving into whats left of the bush with our gang of species and nutrient pollution
     
  18. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    Thanks Peter for mentioning the bushfoods course.

    Funkyfungus, I enjoyed your well-considered thoughts, but I think some of it’s worthy of a reality check.

    To more-or-less right-off an entire continents indigenous food plants as “underwhelming” was a myth that collapsed in the 80’s when enthusiasts started scratching the surface. No one would right-off North American or Mediterranean native foods – so why do this to the Australian continents food plants? It stood to reason that if Australia has a significant portion of the world’s flora it will ultimately include a portion of the world’s food plants as well.

    There were only two native crops recognized previously by European’s: Macadamia first cropped in the 1880’s; and Tetragonia which was the first Australian native plant (also native to NZ) cropped in Kew Gardens following the return of the Endeavour.

    The bushfoods boom of the 80’s and its continued legacy is an inevitable rectification of this culinary blind spot - but it will take generations to culturally embed and possibly the next generation wont even consider these as “bushfoods”, but just another food..

    The bushfood phenomena is also worth looking at because it has implications for the way we assess the productive value of native biota elsewhere. All our staple crops start off their life as a “bushfood” somewhere.

    In assessing the quality of native Australian foods, established market demand is probably an reasonable indicator of quality. There are 21 new native food crops being sold and sought by consumers (24 including the two macadamia species and tetragonia). Interestingly, most bushfoods are being sold outside of Australia to the fine food end of the market because of their flavour attributes. There’s more species being developed, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we ended-up with 50 plus species being cropped throughout Australia – ranging from boutique to significant (given time).

    In the subtropics, I’m commonly seeing some bushfoods growing in zones 1 and 2 in permaculture systems side-by-side exotics (and in some cases out-yielding the standard exotics): Davidson’s plum, finger lime, warrigal greens, riberries, native ginger, brush cherry, lemon myrtle and aniseed myrtle are common. Some people have integrated these species into their cooking on a regular basis. I know kids whose favourite jam is Davidson’s plum!

    No-one is saying that every edible plant in the bush is great – and it’s a process to determine what’s good. But when you know how to use bushfoods (we take for granted all the culinary skills that we inherit for our standard food products) they are complimentary (not in opposition) to our standard staples.

    It was the bushfood chefs of the 80’s, like Bruneteau, the Kersh’s and Fielke who really opened-up bushfood recipe development and highlighted to non-indigenous people the rich flavours in native foods. It’s especially interesting how the native “spice fruits” had been particularly over-looked previously, because of an “out-of-hand” sweet fruit perception associated with quality. The chefs found there was greater flexibility for using the native fruit in sweet or savory recipes, because they were not so limited to sweet dishes as per many sweet exotic fruits.

    But it’s not just flavour. Bushfood are also about global food security.

    Citrus are a vitally important commodity food crop. Phytophora root-rot is one of the biggest risks to citrus production globally, and new Phytophora strains are continually evolving. In the 70’s US researchers found that the Australian finger lime was the most Phytophora resistant citrus in the world, and have subsequently cross-bred it into citrus rootstock for root-rot resistance.

    Edible-seeded Australian desert Acacia’s are also being used in sub-Saharan Africa for famine proofing – introduced by CSIRO with Aboriginal elder’s permission. The Acacia wood is also being used for fuel, and the leaves for goat forage.

    It's been proposed that edible Acacia seed could be produced on a mechanized broad acre basis (doing without annual tillage and resowing) in arid zones where it’s currently not possible to produce standard cereals. The arid zone native foods, including quangdong, desert lime and akudjera could also be vitally important for food security in places where food production is difficult.

    There are many native relatives of standard staples potentially important in plant breeding: Australia has the highest number of soy bean relatives (Glycine spp.); and also has drought hardy cereal relatives (e.g. a native relative of Ethiopia’s Teff); Passiflora spp; and native Vigna spp. Native mung bean (same species as standard mung) has an edible tuber and could be used to breed a more resilient mung bean with a high protein tuber as well as an edible seed! (I grew native mung in a road-side embankment with no top-soil!).

    In my own garden, when the springs ran dry in the 2002-2003 drought, warrigal greens was one of only 3 leafy green vegetables that survived (also radicchio and parsley). Tetragonia is renown as one of the most resilient leafy greens in the world, and its adaptability highlighted by the fact that it grows naturally from Cape York to Tasmania.

    Resilience is a feature of this continents flora which is adapted to the lowest and most irregular rainfall of any continent, and also very low soil fertility. This inherently harsh landscape produced the Australian Eucalyptus – the most widely used timber tree genus (for better or worse) planted in damaged and harsh environments all over the world.

    That inherent resilience also applies to many of Australia’s native food plants. This could be very important as temperatures rise with climate change (higher evaporation); drought frequency increase; and as soils erode. Can we afford to not research native foods?

    In zone 1 and 2 it’s good to have the highly productive foods as a priority, including the productive natives that meet the criterion. But in outer zones 4 and 5 where low maintenance and self-replicating systems are a priority, multiple use natives are an obvious choice for these low input systems (including cabinet timbers). Most of the higher input exotic foods (stone-fruit, pome, citrus, standard vegetables etc) are generally not suitable in the outer zones because they’re not adapted to low maintenance conditions, and bushfoods will generally crop better in these conditions. And what we don't eat is forage for wildlife. But timber planting alone in the outer zones creates a structurally impoverished plant community. There are erosion problems under timber plantations (even mixed species) and lower wildlife benefits due to lack of structural complexity.

    Cheers.
     
  19. funkyfungus

    funkyfungus Junior Member

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    Thanks for the reply

    yes i am familiar with all the examples you have given
    and im not belittling the potential or the hardwork pu into many native species
    I realise many have come a long way

    I say underwhemed because thats what ive experienced. Somewhere out there maybe are better tasting individuals and good on anyone who finds them

    They do have one major benefit if we keep on selecting and improving them (more to our tastebuds and less to the birds they evolved for)
    and that is Biodiversity

    many of our fruits and nuts come from just a few families
    many species from few genera is not nearly as biodiverse as many diferent genera
    from a disease and future evolutionary perspective

    For anyone interetested in another exotic wild fruit in no need of furteh selection (except maybe in tree size and bearing habit) the i suggest reading up on 'Wani' a native of Bali and surrounding islands
    its botanical name is Mangifera caesia so its very clos eto the mango
    but the fruit is nothing alike
    https://www.can.com.sg/neocan/en/streetw ... rious.html

    if u are ever in bali and can find it just clean the seed and bring it home
    its a permitted impott ( all mangifera sp) https://www.aqis.gov.au/ICON
    and germinates easily
    a Tropical species

    However if you are in Brunei in september you will find even more new species as Brunei is a centre of diversity for SE asian tropical fruits.

    also you mentioned droughts
    Ive found 2 greens species to be very versatile in arid climates

    Lycium barbarum - chinese wolfberry . cultivated tetraploid variety
    and
    Mollokhea cochorus olitorius (sp.?)

    well worth consideration
     
  20. peter hardwick

    peter hardwick Junior Member

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    weeds and permaculture

    funkyfungus,

    Everyone has a different idea of what tastes good.

    But if I could suggest that the real flavour experience with bushfoods is best found in culinary alchemy - cooking. There's are some nice fresh fruits (I love a good nyullee), but they're very different than the classic sweet tropicals.

    I actually feel let down by many of the exotics such as dragon fruit, white and black sapote. No complexity - either a bit bland or sickly sweet. But I enjoy passionfruit and jackfruit.

    Best of luck with tracking your Bali mango.
     

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