Windworker

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by alfamick, Nov 16, 2004.

  1. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    We live in a very large mudbrick house in the Ipsich area (QLD). The house has an iron roof and an 8 foot wide verandah right round, so not too much sun gets on the walls but it has an absolutely enormous thermal mass: 12,000 mudbricks in the external wall weighing 15kg each, and lots of internal double clay brick walls (it's all loadbearing brick). Also concrete slab floor with slate and tiles.

    Anyway, the problem in the summer is once it starts to really heat up it gets really hot, so we just put in a passive cooling solution: https://www.windworker.com.au

    Half our house has a cathedral ceiling, and half has a regular ceiling space. We put in 2 Windworker extractors; one in the cathedral ceiling part which vents stright through, and one in the other part with vents in the ceilings of all the bedrooms and bathrooms.

    The system works by extracting air from the highest part of the roof space, and sucking it up through the ceiling vents. Since we have cooler air under the wide verandah, it seems to work really well if we keep the bottom windows open. It brings in heaps of cool air overnight which helps cool all the brick walls. So far, we're really happy with it - house is much cooler, and it doesn't use any electricity. The 2 extractors and 8 vents cost $1,100 fully installed, which I thought was good value to cool such a big house - and no power bills :D .

    Also, the vents have open/close ability; you can shut them off in the winter.

    Only downside is that the vents can't support the weight of a possum!! Chasing an irate possum around a bedroom at 4:00AM after he just fell through the ceiling is quite an experience.

    Cheers, Mick
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    possum traps/multiple functions

    Hey Mick, that seems like a great passive air conditioning system for the relatively harsh climatic extremes of Ipswich. Wondering if you chose that system over the more common "whirlybird" types that you see around for some particular reason?
    Will it require ongoing maintenance? Does it have a bearing where it spins around, or bushings?
    As far as the possum getting in, what a laugh! If it were me I would probably try to rig up some sort of catcher under the vent to make it easier to catch and dispatch the possums.
    At the "Farming the Future" expo's they were holding in south east Qld about 5 years ago you could sample all different kinds of meats from Emu to Croc and Possum. They had these great little bite sized meat pies made with Possum and they tasted great! Plus you get a nice little skin for making gloves or handbags!
     
  3. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Hi Richard,

    I chose it over the whirly things for a few reasons; mainly their claims that they extract far more air than the whirly types. According to Choice magazine tests, some whirly ones extract less air than an open hole!

    The other advantages were the open/close vents to each room, and the extremely reasonable price for the installation of the whole setup.

    As for bite-size pies of possum meat, sounds yummy but I don't think the neighbour who rescues and cares for the orphaned possums (which eventually end up in our roof) would be impressed!

    Cheers,

    Mick
     
  4. Mont

    Mont Junior Member

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    Ordinary whirligigs are certainly disappointing. Ours are supposed to be the best ones but on sultry nights like tonight they seem to do bugger-all. I know they aren't a total cooling solution but it'd be nice if they were noticeable!
     
  5. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    dunno sometimes wonder about what choice says about things (they may do ok testing electrical appliances or other inanimate objects like that but dunno about the rest i was a mower mechanic when the did a mower report too stupid for words must have gotten it all from the colour brochure i think money talks). for me a hole in the roof worked realy well we got that idea as we cut holes through our ceiling lining for the open/close vents to suit the 4 whirlybirds (we have no roof space cavity to deal with no chance of a possum meal for us hey lol), so can't see as how the whirlybirds did much more than water proof the hole in the roof and vent the house as they are supposed to do, so to speak.

    we have a scillion roof with whirlybirds fitted along the high side (front) they keep the house lots cooler than the ambiant temperature outside, dunno about dealing with muggy, i think only airconditioners can dehumidify air, that is all that makes for muggy is the humidity. we use casement and hopper windows in our eco' designed open planned, warm-house/cool-house, that give control over air flow.

    i think our whirlies cost around 90 odd bucks but can get lower on special the special vents come in at around 75 bucks each.

    len :)
     
  6. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Hi Len,

    Well, we got another possum through the roof at 4:10AM this morning - crash, through the same vent and ran all round the house. He was a fairly tame brushtail; the woman up the back looks after orphaned ones then lets them go; they all come to our place LOL!

    So I think it's time to change the way that vent is fixed in.

    I'm interested in your hopper window arrangement; I'd never thought of having windows open in from the top, but it makes sense. Did you have someone make them specially? My place has lots of old leadlight windows, but the gaps around them are ridiculous (you could about put your hand through) so I need to do a lot of work anyway. May as well set it all up for best cooling efficiency.

    Cheers, Mick
     
  7. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mick,

    they are aluminium framed windows that i had made at a window factory, they are litteraly a casement window on its side, so if you shop around the second hand lots you may find some casement that will do the job, mine are hung to swing out to open. from some research (don't know the source) some many years ago, they determined that the best windows for ventilation are in this order:

    1.. louvres

    2. hoppers

    3. casements

    all our casements are all (1 became a hooper for the back wall of the loo) second hand windows that were being pulled out of a house in favour of sliders (silly move realy) and on the way to the dump, so we got them for nix and had frames made to hang them in so they get a second life and no extra resource needed to make new ones.

    and not surprising sliders just don't even figure in the report. they said that hoppers and louvres can actually creat their won air movement, i like casements because i can control the breeze, either by capturing it and directing it insde or by minimising how much comes in. don't know if you have looked at our home pics, but the home is aspected to magnetic north (true north would have been that much better), on a northern aspect slope. we have casements all along the front (north wall) including 3 around the corner on the north/eastern end of the eastern wall. none on the western wall and the hoppers are along the southern wall. the front wall is 4 meters high the back wall is 3 meters high, no roof cavity.

    we had our exitement 2 nights ago a southern boobook owl flew into one of the hoppers, got no idea how it managed that it had to fly between 2 water tanks and at the time there were no lights on and no way anything could be reflecting off the hoppers they are up high and have an eave over them. anyway he came to after a bit and flew off, lovely bird up close and in all the exitement and concern we forgot to take a pic oh well.

    len 8)
     
  8. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    Cooling

    This is a really interesting debate, especially at the moment because i am at the planning stage for some cooling work on our house. Our place is built on a westerly facing slope, and it has an enormous roof area facing west. Last summer, our first here, it got intolerably hot for a couple of weeks.

    I was very interested to see the points about wind whirlers etc, as they are one of the options i am looking at. But why hasn't anyone mentioned solar chimneys? They are a black painted steel pipe fitted above the highest point inside. Supposedly the black colour helps the sun to warm the pipe and the air in it, causing the air to rise and suck out the hot air in the house below. Combined with an underground cool air tunnel, feeding in somewhere on the ground floor, solar chimneys seem to offer an efficient and passive cooling system. I am also starting to develop a leafy cool area on the south side of the house, from where i will draw the cool air, thus avoiding the extra expense of building a long tunnel from an existing spot somewhere up the hill.

    The other thing I am looking into seriously is this reflective paint which i have talked about before. Thanks btw to Mark for the website of the Ecos article. I have now contacted 3 companies, for those who are interested here are their sites:

    [email protected]

    Solar Rail Pty Ltd

    Australian Paint Industries

    They all use an acrylic paint, and claim that their product reflects about 94% of the solar rays back into the sky. The metal below the paint stays within +/- 4 degrees of the ambient temperature. Both of the first two companies are getting interest from companies - supermarkets, big office blocks, factories etc. In recorded cases they have reduced air conditioning bills by 50% or more over a number of years, which adds up to big bickies.

    The first two cost to the order of $9 and $15 per sq m respectively - applied by professionals. We reckon we could do our 120 sq m roof for $1000 - 2000. A split system air conditioner, installed, would cost up to $3000, and then the the noise of the thing, the bills, the smog, the depression.

    Any comments or suggestions?

    Peter
     
  9. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Len,

    Good to see someone else having wildlife crashing in on them!

    Our house is very solidly-constructed mudbrick, but built with zippo passive solar understandinging. There are almost no windows on the northern side, and tons of glass to the south. We're gradually adding curtains, we've added the ventilation, and are planning some skylights that will have to be positioned very carefully.

    Peter,

    The heat-expelling paint sounds great.

    The solar chimney could be good too; I didn't have many options because my walls are all loadbearing brick and the floor is a slab so I can't really run any piping anywhere.

    In terms of pricing, the windworker units themselves are expensive ($407 installed, less uninstalled) but very efficient. But they sell the open/close vents really cheaply ($44 installed) and I needed 8 of them.

    Cheers,

    Mick
     
  10. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mick,

    just wondering how you get your winter sun into the house to warm it up through the day time? our northern aspect with all the glass gives us sun in the house all through winter so we warm up very quickly from as soon as the sun breaks over yon' trees. point in question neighbours on north/eastern aspect but with run of the mill qlder bungalow slab and brick with verandahs all round at 8am one winter morn' we went to buy eggs i was wearing shorts thongs and sloppy joe, they rugged up for the col artic he had 0c in his living room we already had 12c in our whole house, and that was from a 0c on our patio before daylight.

    g'day peter,

    if you go for the paint we hope it works well for you, the way i see it with your western aspect land you are most likely going to have extremes of heat in summer and cold in winter. for the summer and as i can't see your situation i would be trying to get as much shade onto the house as early in the arfternonn as possible during the summer solstice, so that should be the west-south/western aspect for the hottest sun.

    len 8)
     
  11. Mont

    Mont Junior Member

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    I'd love to put in solar chimneys Peter but I'm an unhandy bastard and I don't know any professionals who install them. Maybe the Alternative Technology Association might know an installer so I can cost them.
     
  12. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    Shade

    Yes Len, shade from the west and SW is badly needed and I'm working on it - I've planted rainforest trees right across that side (pencil cedar, celery wood, native frangipanni, a white cedar and 3 red cedars. Probably sticking my neck out planting red cedars so close to the house - the closest is about 15 m out from the NW corner. They are stupendous trees when they get up a bit - I am just starting to recognise them easily and noticing how many there are, some giants, on the road from Nimbin to the Channon, which i travel on quite often). The only thing now is waiting for them to come up - they will have to reach about 10 - 12 m to make much difference, which will take a few years. In the meantime we are getting the other possibilities going.

    Cheers

    Peter
     
  13. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    trees they are so easy to chop down and so hard to get them back to full size again, but keep pluggin, i was thinking for the west-north/western end maybe deciduous might have been the go? still thinking you need to get what sun you can into the house to help with the warming in winter, just thoughts going through my head now. can't recall did you say you had full insulation under the roof? eg.,. pink batts (highest rating) and sizalation. even if some of the trees are wrong as you indicated you can plant something else under them and have it up and going before removing any others that could cause problems.

    anyhow keep us up to date on the paint.

    len :)
     
  14. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Len,

    You're dead right in your question about how winter light gets in - it doesn't!

    Because of the huge thermal mass, the temp of our house doesn't fluctuate quickly; it taks a day or two to move in either direction. But it is very dark in the winter, and consequently needs to be heated up from the fireplace. It's so frustrating to be in such a nice house on such nice land, that was designed so stupidly!!!

    That's why I was talking about strategically-located skylights, although they will still be relatively small in comparison to what windows should be there.

    The other thing I've been doing is clearing on the eastern side because we do have some glass there and may as well get a bit of early morning sun in.

    Mick
     
  15. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mick,

    definately the house has very good thermal qualities but then aspected and designed not right to avail of the sun in winter. these skylights you talk about? are they those normal dome types that are quiet common on roofs nowadays?

    i would wonder (and you may be doing this) what are the logistics of having those attic type windows but aspected north to collect the winter sun in? they could be a scillion roofed afair (hard to explain waht i mean) like i say i don't know the shape of things but thinking out aloud if it is wishy washy just let it go through to the keeper hey. i know that sort of thing could be more expensive but then it may deliver better value for money, than a cheaper option.

    need care opening up the eastern sun in summer this could add heaps of heat early in the day this will then be compounded later on with the arvo' sun in summer. basically in the winter your sun should be coming from app' the east-north/east.

    len hoping this bit of 'um brain storming helps a little. :lol: :wink:
     
  16. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Hi Len,

    I appreciate the brainstorming!

    I've thought through some of these things. I think you're meaning clerestory windows? They could be an excellent choice if set up rigth to let winter sun below a certain angle in; skylights cannot control the angle of sun let in.

    Problem is, the house is the wrong direction! It is a big (huge) long rectangle, running north-south, and divided into quarters by double-brick walls running straight down the middle. The northern quarters are the bedrooms/bathroom/laundry, and are under a regular ceiling. The south-eastern quarter is kitchen/living, the south-western quarter is lounge/dinign/family.

    So really the only feasible place for clerestory windows would be above the kitchen/living area but pointing almost directly east.

    Very little summer sun hits any walls directly, because the verandah is 8ft wide all round, with a big bullnose on it. In the winter, more sun gets under the verandah onto walls or at least the brick pavers, so the house does warm slightly. But if you don't run the fire it progressively cools over a few days to something like a live-in fridge. And over summer if there's some hot days and nights it can really heat up!!!

    Cheers,

    Mick
     
  17. Snake

    Snake Junior Member

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    Passive Solar Heating

    G'day Mick, Len, Peter et al,

    Following this one with considerable interest myself as I grapple with the (very) early stages of design for our strawbale house - keep the ideas coming!

    As far as getting light into your place Mick, have you thought about the possibility of using ponds/pools strategically placed to reflect light in winter? I guess it sounds a bit odd but as you have an established situation with wide verandahs, placing a pond near the northern end/corners to reflect winter light into that end of the house at least might help. There was an article in RENEW recently about a couple who built a well insulated solar passive kit home in south eastern Victoria but found it a bit cold in winter, so they researched then manufactured a sheet metal 'mirror' that sits on their north facing deck and apparently doubles the warming effect of the sun in winter. Of course, you may not have the space to do so, but it's a thought.

    Cheers,

    Mark 8)
     
  18. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day mick,

    mmm yes i am getting a better picture, a real poser hey anyway lets keep throwing stuff into the ring if we can like i say if it were at all possible i could see your situ' i may? i say may get an idea or 2 but hey i'm only a regular person with a regular i/q.

    is it an 'A' frame type gable? if so maybe some windows in the northern end gable if need be maybe just make it all glass as we are looking to get sun in for winter so cooling can be looked after in othar ways as this glass area won't get any summer sun just the ambient light so to say.

    what mark says about mirrors could be worth a big think, hey if it were to work it will make a big difference, i feel you need to take lots of ideas/suggestions on board hash 'em around and look at the sight and go from there do some research try some experiments nothing hi' tech.

    mark,

    orient the house facing as close to true north as you can get right on if you can do it magnetic north will do though with a scillion roof of course, hey i could be wrong but true north is 11 degrees west of magnetic north, put all you windows and verandah along that side, that being the side of the house facing north so the opposite side faces south. no windows in the western wall at all, only high hoppers along the south for cross-ventilation and with caution some window in the eastern wall generally at the north/eastern side of that wall, but as an option you could do without them.

    generally better if land is northern or at very least north/eastern apsect, we have found aspect and orientation of house to bothe be very important. and don't use sliders eitehr louvres (hey i hear they have better frames for them nowadays so they aren't so noisy), hoppers or casements, bet you wouldn't have to go far to find second hand stuff.

    anyhow just how we see it our house although only aspected magnetic north works very well we have no heating or cooling and get heavy frost so can get to -10c outside. what more can i say, unfortunately through social engineering by real estate and the building trade most folk don't even consider aspects anymore nor do they consider scillion roofs. my lovely gets to work in a very comfortable kitchen that is at the north/eastern corner of the house very comfortable indeed.

    len :D
     
  19. alfamick

    alfamick Junior Member

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    Mark, Len,

    Thanks again for the ideas.

    I like the idea of reflective ponds etc. at a northern end, but in our case the northern wall is a massive mudbrick wall with almost no windows, and the rooms on the northern end are bedrooms, and bathrooms.

    The living areas are all at the southern end, and that's where the glass is. There's no option to open up any windows, as it's load-bearing mudbrick.

    So if we do try to get more light in, it will have to be via the roof I reckon, down towards the southern end. Also perhaps replacing some old leadlight windows with plain glass.

    I'll see if I can dig up some photos.

    Cheers,

    Mick
     
  20. Peter Warne

    Peter Warne Junior Member

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    batts

    Just a snippet about pink or other batts.

    The functioning part is the air bubbles trapped in the fibres of the batts. These bubbles stop the heat by absorbing it. Once they get really warm they radiate their own excess heat - in both directions.

    As I've said before, we have a west facing roof with our bedroom right up under it (a cathedral ceiling type arrangement). ONce the pinkbatts warm up, shortly after midday, the throw heat at the 3-ply lining which forms our ceiling. The plywood gets warm to the touch, and it stays warm till at least midnight, keeping the room hotter than anywhere else in the house - which cools off quite quickly once the sun goes down.

    That's the limitation with pinkbatts, and that's why I'm interested in solar reflective paint.


    Peter
     

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