Alert for Frosty - Watch SBS July 13

Discussion in 'The big picture' started by heuristics, Jul 7, 2006.

  1. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    I agree!!!

    Lets get rid of all soldiers.

    The world would be a much safer and happier place. There would be no violence or mayhem. Everyone would get alone with his/her neighbour....all the trouble in the world would disappear overnight.

    I feel for those who live near an army base or training area, having done so myself over many years. Nothing could be more annoying, or heartbreaking, than to try to set up your own little piece of paradise only to have the army come along and set up camp next door to you.

    But Richard...if it's the government who uses soldiers why isn't your anger aimed at those governments? Do you condem police who are acting of the orders of their government, or will you take the easy way out and blame the police.

    You can post anything you like here....and of course you'll only post the 'bad'.....A girl raped by american soldiers, I hope they get what they deserve! I know of a girl who was stoned to death because some american soldiers gave her some chocolate...as an act of friendship....will we balme those soldiers for her death, or should we blame those who killed her....of course we can always say it was the americans who caused it!

    If you feel so strongly about it pm me your address and I will send you the plane fare so you can stand on the shores of Gallipoli next year, and there tell all who will listen just how worthless and vile those soldiers were, how they have caused all numbers of disgraceful acts throughout time.

    Or maybe you could go visit the many Legacy Widows and children around this country and sit with them for a while....tell them how pathetic their husbands and fathers were, how they wasted their life.

    I honestly would love to see how you would go.

    Any man who would rape a girl, or anyone for the matter, should be lined up and shot in my opinion. An army is society with weapons....a mirror if you like.

    It would be too easy to say that this forum should only be about permaculture...we're all human, and should talk about what matters to us.

    I can believe everything in this thread..it isn't that hard to believe...to accept.

    Rapes do happen, murder does happen. But, amongst the inevitable retort, can someone please explain why the insistance of only presenting one side of the arguement is ever presented?

    How is it that by posting foreign soldiers in a country compells people to kill their own. How is it that these people are not held accountable....or wouldn't that sit too well with the picture that you're trying to paint?

    If you can't, or are too scared, to present both sides of the story..........

    And that, after much writing (crap) is my point.

    It doesn't take courage to show both sides of the coin....it takes decency.

    :)
     
  2. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    frosty,
    this sounds like hell on earth. what's stopping you moving somewhere else if things are this bad? it does seem unlikely that the military are going away anytime soon.

    honest question.

    murray.
     
  3. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    If Ive said it Once Ive said it a few times.......


    We get the society we deserve........

    We cant blame the army,navy or airforces,We cant blame George,Tony or Little Johnny

    We just blame us Dick head Voters..In a Pure Democracy we have Choice

    God gives us free Choice.........

    Our Brains. Einstein once said we only use about 1% of our brains..

    Well to some people that figure seams a gross exageration of figures..

    S T F Im glad you seen the Light and become a normal human again WELCOME BACK.......

    I like you and probly 99% of males get patriotic over their country,footy,cricket,rugby teams and get all macho etc at any threat or injustice delt upon our Group.......I too was brainwashed via the british schooling,To hate.French,Italians,Germans,Japanese,u name em i been taught to hate them.Then one day I realised Id grown up,trouble was I was 32.I am no longer Patriotic ........NO WAY...Self defence only...

    I declared my self a Citizen of Earth about that time........
    Im not English and certainly Not Australian.....I wont be a hypocrite and declare my life,body or soul to any country. least of all any country with the values of uk usa or aus Government......

    One last thing though........Im glad the board is resonably friendly re the heart felt subject..and HOPE that this continues AFTER all we are all on same side arnt we...Lets keep it friendly please.....

    Muzza Ever tried selling A house with a bombing range in your back garden.....Who/what kinda person would wanna by it...


    Tezza
     
  4. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Quite. Thank you Cornonthecob.

    I have been quite distressed by the vileness directed towards Soldierturnedfarmer in this thread. Permanut, if your comments truly reflect the hate you have in your heart towards some of your fellow man then I suspect no amount of gardening is going restore your joy.

    The military is guilty of much stupidity and many atrocities, but I believe that a country's military reflects both the best and worst of the society from which the soldiers come. It isn't the Permaculture Institute restoring peace in East Timor.
     
  5. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    to all concerned, i have asked permanut to edit his/her post to remove the personal attack on STF and to refrain from making personal attacks in future. debating the issues is what we are here for -- not to tell other people that they belong in the ground. i'm sure most of us can agree on that.

    Tezza:
    um, do the property tours on the quiet days? :)
     
  6. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Ok, Corn on the Cob, to answer your question, I think that all individuals should take responsibility for their actions. Police, soldiers, elected representatives - all who participate in war are responsible to the extent that they are involved.
    Trying to pass the buck up to Howard or Bush is a bit crap.
    You are quite right though, there are two sides to every story. Still, in Iraq, at least the people who are fighting the US army and the US backed Iraqi army are from Iraq, or at least that general part ofd the world. What in the heck are Aussies and Yanks doing over there?
     
  7. permanut

    permanut Junior Member

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    The military is guilty of much stupidity and many atrocities, but I believe that a country's military reflects both the best and worst of the society from which the soldiers come. It isn't the Permaculture Institute restoring peace in East Timor.[/quote]Mungbeans.

    :lol: You and STF together seem to be brainwashed. Actually the milltary are in East Timor under the guise of restoring peace when actually they are there securing Australian interests.
     
  8. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Oh you are so right. Next time lets just leave them to machete each other to bits. And ignore their goverment's plea for help. So much more moral.

    From now on lets insist on taking high moral ground and never again secure our interests.

    What was it Murray said about not attacking people? Argue the point, not the person.
     
  9. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    G'day Richard :)

    As Permanut pointed out (I always thought everyone knew this?)...protecting their countries interest. Same as why we went into East Timor....anybody who says differently really doesn't understand the world. But of course you just can't go wandering into another country these days, you need a reason...if there isn't a reason, you make one up.

    No one should be surprised by this...look at history...it's how the world works. Sad, but true.

    I think one of the stumbling blocks with 'discussions like this is: that a person who isn't/hasn't been a soldier sees the world as they would like it, while a soldier sees it as it is....for better or worst, and whether you wish to believe it or not, there are people out there who just are not nice at all! Though we all start as cute cuddly babies don't we?

    Some people have faith in god...others try to do the same with their governments. Me....I'll just plant another tree.

    Another sad fact is that in some parts of the world people are only ever 'happy?' when fighting...some countries/parts of the world do need to be controlled by a government using some form of force military/police to maintain order and put a stop to violence....again, it's sad but true. As a species mankind really is kinda pathetic hey!

    :)

    Oh!....tis ok, I am way too old, ugly and lazy to take offence about anything personal. :)
     
  10. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Well, Corn on the Cob, we do agree on one thing, and that is that the most important thing we can do to improve the world is plant more trees!
    Since my last post I have put in, um, let's see, I think 16 Sesbania grandifloras and 18 pidgeon peas, so a total of 34!
    But you know, I have to take an opposing point of view to the one you expressed. While it might seem like in some parts of the world people are only happy when they are fighting, I think that this just isn't so. Most of the people in those places are made miserable by the conflict. There are a few people in power that benefit, and everyone else is swept along in the madness.
    If we really look at what causes conflict, it is most often over competition for resources. Forget all the hyped up bullshit about religion or ideology or whatever, it is all just tribes fighting for resources. In the world today you can, depending on your view of history trace the roots of all these conflicts back to the exploitation by western powers during the colonial period.
    I think that it is a bit rich to say that soldiers are the only ones who can see the world for how it is. Perhaps carrying a gun around so much tends to make one, I don't know... Do you think it is actually likely that soldiers get a warped view of peoples intentions? I mean, if you go around all warlike, you are going to see that reflected in the people that you encounter, don't you think?
    Either way, I think that Permaculture is a useful tool for world peace, since if it is successful it will create sustainable human settlements, which by definition provide abundant resources for people in perpetuity. It seems to me that greed and anger most often come from insecurity, real or percieved, so by designing for food security and water security and energy security, and every other kind of security, we can go a long way towards unravelling the causes of war. We just need to remember to share the surplus! :D

    PS Permanut, you are out of line, being personally insulting. As mung says, argue the point, not the person.
     
  11. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    lol I went out and planted 120 pigeon pea seeds....please pray for them! :)

    With the comment about some people only being happy if they were fighting, I was thinking of what I'd seen in Africa...you know, the clan/tribe thing...some places need a dictator type to control that sort of thing...yes they usually turn out to be corrupt, but there's peace (what price peace?)....I've seen people prepared to kill over rice that has been spoiled by diesel...how can you not shake your head at that.

    Another example off the top of my head...the breakup of the Soviet Union...look at what has happen/is happening to those new (well old but new now) states. Not a perfect example..but an example nevertheless! :)

    Yes it was a bit rich (only soldiers seeing the world for it is)....but said to highlight that soldiers and civilians see the world through different eyes, you don't have to be too clever to really see the world as it truely is. And trust me, some soldiers aren't overly smart!

    I'm not sure if soldiers develope a warped view of peoples intentions...certainly they become a bit cynical (finally I can blame it on someone!) about things....sometimes I think it comes down to the fact that there are times when a soldier is required to make a decision based on his training, his humanity and his better judgement. When you're in a country that is empty of law and order you make calls the best that you can. When your job is to confiscate weapons from people you do that...but there are times, when you look into the eyes of a man and his family and decide to let him keep his, so he can at least have some way to protect his family....but you always walk away hoping that that weapon won't be used against you or your mates.

    One of the hardest things about being a soldier is that some people forget that you're still human.

    Damn getting all deep and teary eyed now! lol

    A man once sang about 'living for today' 'living life in peace' 'sharing all the world'.....that man was shot dead.

    Best we just keep planting trees Richard! :)
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Yeah, we'll keep planting trees, and brah, I hope one day you'll join us, and the world will live as one. :wink:
     
  13. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    um, do the property tours on the quiet days? :)[/quote:7kbkyvgw]

    Hi Murray

    basically tezza has it right but it isnt just a matter of showing the house on a quiet day

    I doubt we could sleep nights if we did dupe anyone like that :cry:

    and I doubt anyone would fall for it anyway - everyone knows there is a bombing range here now so property values are very low and even if we find someone to buy it we cant afford to buy anywhere else

    partly the blame for everyone knowing sits with us :lol: we made a decision that the right thing to do was "fight" the good fight and try and make the world aware of what was hapening here and to the people living near military training areas wherever they may be

    if anyone who didnt see Dirty war wants me to run them off a video copy Pm me .......... it shows the real issues involved ........ those poor people in the philippines cant do much they are too busy trying to just survive poverty and sickness


    it is up to people like us with the help of a growing global network to shout out that this killing must stop - the killing of civilians by pollution from training ........ War is bad enough but killing your own people in the name of defence is obscene


    once you understand that it makes all the Ra Ra stuff sound hollow ....... and the responses by the ex soldiers here show how effective the military are at hiding the facts from them

    I know that neither corny or STF would really condone killing fellow aussies especially children ...... in fact they probably the have trouble believing it happens - I am sure they were never told the emissions from bombs and shells are harmful but it sadly they are ......... and of course they are harming to them as well as to us ....... who would ever join up knowing that the exposures could effect their future children ?

    and BTW of course military activities are a major contributer to global warming but you wont ever hear that on the TV news

    the military industrial complex needs cannon fodder ....... they need the support of the people to take money away from where it is really needed to literally blow it up in smoke

    my quotes are getting a hammering but here is another -

    very government is made, every warship that is launched, every
    rocket that is fired, signifies in the final sense a theft from those
    who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed.
    This world in armaments is not spending its money alone. It is
    spending the sweat of its labourers, the genius of its scientists,
    the hopes of its children.


    dwight D Eisenhower

    how many of you had any idea that the death toll of war is not restricted to the war zone

    frosty
     
  14. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    Corny your remarks werent directed at me but I do feel they need some comment as the seem to have arrisen from things I have said

    I know this as sarcasm but the reality is that until we do get rid of soldiers we wont have world peace ....... I dont want to run foul of murray but I am sure you have heard that old saying that fighting a war for peace is like F***in for virginity :evil:

    surely you can see how american's throwing its military weigh arround promotes terrorism ?

    I appreciate that you realise this ........ if only the local army or navy people that we try to communicate with could just once say something similar we would not have such a low opinion of them - but they always insist we have nothing to complain about and dismiss us as whingers

    while you cant blame the soliers as such for the stoning ( even me :p ) it does show how foreign soldiers dont understand local culture in foreign countries and should stay in their own .........

    can you imagine how it must feel to have a foreign army occupy your country ? I feel bad enough having one train here :twisted: sometimes my belief in non villence is stretched to singing "lord wont you buy me an anti aircraft gun" :oops: especially at midnight with waves of superhornets still flying over since after starting at 10am ....... and the whole house virating- the windows rattling and the dog still barking as loud as he can :evil:


    in times past when wars were fought on battlefields the situation was very different - now planes fly over cities and drop bombs that rip civilians to bits in their own homes ........ where is the honour in massacring innocent women and children

    [/quote:29pawlim]

    corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement ......... soemthing I would expect from the pricks I deal with here but I did expect better from you :cry:

    I believe a soldiers sees the world as his masters want him to see it .......

    some of us see the world as our own research and experience evaluates it ........ yes we too may develop some bias but it is a bias we come to ourselves by free choice not one we are fed by an organisation seeking to manipulate us

    frosty
     
  15. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    hi frosty

    >corny this really is a very predudiced and patronising statement

    you do know that you're quite capable of patronising people too, right?

    i'll quote you from your previous post so you know what i'm talking about:
    just food for thought for the next time you accuse someone of being patronising... :oops:

    m.
     
  16. permanut

    permanut Junior Member

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    just food for thought for the next time you accuse someone of being patronising... :oops:


    STAY ON THE FENCE MURRAY!!
     
  17. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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  18. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    On and on and on... :oops:
     
  19. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    :shock: :( I think I've finally found a proper use for the 'Ignore' button.
     
  20. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Interesting discussion, nice to hear from so many different sides of the fence... Wish I'd seen the show... :D
     

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