Cats as compost activators.

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by ho-hum, Jun 14, 2006.

  1. strud

    strud Junior Member

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    Nibbler,

    I will definitely not be putting out poisons or getting a cat.

    The simple approach for us was to remove the food source for the rats & mice.

    Anyone who is able to have a cat and prevent it from killing wildlife is doing fine by me. But from experience and talking to all the people I know who have cats (and I did when I was young), it is near impossible to have a cat that has access to the outside world (with or without bell etc) without it killing wildlife.

    Iam not a cat hater, but do find it difficult to accept any defence of their (or other feral animal) existence in the wilds here. Of course it is impossible to remove these from our country now that they have been introduced (eg Dingo).........

    This is a never ending argument I guess :)

    How goes the issue of foxes making it to Tassie then ? Should not these be eradicated if they are an extreme risk to the native wildlife ?
     
  2. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Hear, Hear, Nibbler! :cheers: You have also mentioned another much ignored fact about cats; the role they play in protecting the native environment by keeping other feral species in check. :eek:ccasion5:

    My key point here remains that the most destructive feral species in the Australian landscape is the human. It is we who hack enormous swathes through the natural environment, and it is we who introduce the species that put further pressure on the natives, by competing for the remaining resources.

    I don't suggest we should hate ourselves for this, by the way, but I do recommend not displacing our collective guilt onto other creatures who are, in the truest sense, innocent.
     
  3. Nibbler

    Nibbler Junior Member

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    Hey there Alex, yeah all good points.
    I agree humans have done by far the most environmental damage, and I guess that's why I feel so angry when people try to blame it on other animals (which WE introduced here in the first place!).
    It's ironic that humans are the only animals with the brain power to REALISE they are hurting other species, yet humans are by far the cruelest and most destructive species. I don't hate humans though either! So how much less do I hate cats or any other animal, when all they are doing is trying to survive.
    Strud sorry I didn't mean to imply you hate cats, or that you would be using poisons, I was just talking about an attitude that I've come across so many times in the community.
    But I think you've kind of missed the point I was trying to make. I don't really know how else to put it though, apart from what I wrote in my previous posts .....
    Part of what I am saying that the impact of cats seems to be often assumed to be worse than the impact of other things, in cases when there's no hard data to show it. Just one example is the number of animals run over on the roads - it's horrible to see here in Tassie. But are there as many people declaring they won't have cars as there are saying they will never get a cat?? No way! Despite the fact that not having a car will help species conservation in other ways than roadkill reduction - reduced air pollution, reduced greenhouse gases so slowing climate change, reduced heavy metals etc distributed all over the roads from tyres, reduced use of petrol (the mining and processing of which degrades habitats), reduced energy and resource use and pollution from the manufacturing of the car, reduced pollution from the disposal of the car. I guess it's pretty extreme to most people to not have a car at all - and no-one wants to be personally inconvenienced (although it's not all bad, any resulting increase in walking would do me good that's for sure!). I consider it possible that what appears to me to be a general over-emphasis on the impact of introduced species is partly because things like feral animal eradication programs would NOT cause inconvenience to most people (unlike eg drastically reducing car use). Again I certainly don't mean to direct this to anyone personally, I'm just suggesting reasons that this view is so widespread.
    Re foxes in Tassie , I would really like to know why someone deliberately brought them here!! I think most people would agree it could only be a good thing for Aus wildlife if we had not introduced ANY animals !! Personally I would prefer for a small number of foxes to be killed now and they be totally gone from Tassie rather than a large population build up and be constantly fed poison baits. I would also love for native animals not to be killed with poison baits !
    I don't know if the lack of foxes is the reason for Tassie having the 'best' mammal species preservation record of all the states (just one extinction, and I think we're pretty clear on what species caused that one). It is worth thinking about that Tassie has the same density of cat population as other states, as far as I'm aware, and hasn't lost one small mammal species in the time cats have been here.....

    I guess I'll try to refrain from posting any more on this topic myself, don't want to bore people silly!

    So if you post and I dont reply I'm not ignoring you!
     
  4. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    https://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0, ... 21,00.html
     
  5. Nibbler

    Nibbler Junior Member

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    oh no i'm posting and i said i wouldn't!
    i just had to say that fox thing is really weird - i had heard the suggestion that the fact foxes were introduced to tassie was made up, but i thought why would someone do that???
    I see what the article has suggested, and i guess i'm willing to believe there could be alterior motives. Re the 1080 thing i would have thought fox baits have to be in meat and wallaby baits in veges so not quite sure that would work as an excuse ....... if someone found they were laying 1080 carrots it'd be hard to explain as fox baits!!
    on the other hand i hate to think what the impact of 1080 meat baits will be on the native carnivores :cry:
    the poor tas devil doesnt need another kick surely, but then neither do the quolls etc
     
  6. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    It's a bit of worry which ever way you look at it, Nibbler. I put that article up to highlight my argument that much of what passes for "knowledge" is often just a bunch untested or unchallenged assumptions, and that while it is extremely difficult, it is important to try to verify everything we choose to believe.

    Some of the things we have accepted in life are simple errors, while others are malicious deceit. The truth is difficult, and often impossible to discern, but a quest worthy of the effort. It is essential to question everything, to ask ourselves "why do I believe the things that I do?" and demand honest answers of ourselves.

    As Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living."
     
  7. Nibbler

    Nibbler Junior Member

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    food for thought

    Ahh I see , yes I guess it illustrates that theme of this thread quite nicely.
    Probably a good time to be challenging things presented to us as 'facts' by various persons in the current pre-election phase!


    :)
     
  8. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Absolutely, Nibbler.

    We're straying a bit from the original topic here, but since you mention the election....... The situation involving Mr Rudd's wife and her underpayment of her employees under AWA's shows that if it is not made clearly and expressly illegal to exploit workers, even people you think you can trust will rip you off. That is what Mr Howard's workplace laws are designed to do, to rip you off. And I have never trusted that Slimy Little Twerp one little bit.

    So when I ask myself "why do I believe John Howard cannot be trusted?" I just look at the evidence.

    Whatever you do, don't vote Liberal.
     
  9. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Well,

    Now the hoo-haa is over. I didnt advocate cat murder, I didnt even advocate cat genocide. I started this thread as a discussion.

    I even got this very early on in the piece.

    Well I took richard's advice and shut up... sadly he didnt take his own advice or even his mother's advice. Somehow 'sadly' means I get paid for computer time, perhaps Richard doesnt? I didnt even really respond to the 'you must hate cats but I love 'em' branch of society.

    I am really pleased that toaists have responsible cats. I learned that much. I am really pleased cats didnt devastate Tasmania...... BUT I WASNT TALKING ABOUT ISOLATED ISLAND EXAMPLES THAT HAVE/HAD ABUNDANT TERTIARY CARNIVORES. Australia has dozens of island examples of wildlife thriving WITHOUT cats, perhaps Tasmania is the exception.

    I have always said I live remote and the devastation here is profound. I do not care to do the 'well the dinosaurs/captain cookers/landcruisers' did more damage thing. This happens beyond the boundaries of roads. Nor do I wish to dwell on the 'cat dreaming', they must have got here first thing either. It is not supported by any anthropological evidence past 1 ABC show. [I am not attacking the ABC here either].

    Please post any sort of archaeological evidence of this. Anyone who lives in remote Australia will tell you that cats do not thrive where dingoes do, they do however persist.

    My original post was about using animals as compost activators. Thank goodness I wasnt looking for a 'fight'. I was hoping we would talk about composting fish, skins, innards, dead pets, road kills etc.

    Thankyou for those that participated. For the other 'my-cat-only- kills-non-native-parrots-and- rodents- and-i-live- near-a-supermarket-just-in-case-types' keep your cats close and your insular misconceptions closer.

    floot
     
  10. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Floot, to be fair, you did start the thread by simply asking a not-unreasonable question. Perhaps if the heading had been Roadkill or Small Animals as Compost Activators, you might have got a different response. And you did cop a few unfair comments. It was another respondent's comment that got my back up, and my comments weren't aimed at you, personally, Floot, but at anyone who harbours a pathological hatred of cats. So I apologise if you were offended (unless you harbour a pathological hatred of cats, of course).

    Now, to return to the question, which is about composting.....

    During the Tasmanian PDC at Molesworth in February, Geoff Lawton picked up a freshly road-killed wallaby for our compost heap. The pile was turned daily, and poor Wally broke down pretty quickly, though he got a bit smelly for a while. It was only a few days, however, before the smell gave way to the more pleasant odor of humus, and even the bones were completely consumed by the end. Everyone was pretty impressed.

    So if you use the Berkley method, it will not take long to completely reduce a small animal to compost, bones and all. Larger animals (and humans) would need a bigger pile, which would be hard work to turn, not to mention the odor. :oops:

    As a foot note, the septic tank at the Molesworth venue was in serious need of kick starting somehow, and maybe a dead cat might have done the trick (apparently their flexible frame makes them easy to get down the hole), but since mine was the only cat in the area, I said nothing.
    :lol:
     
  11. Tas'

    Tas' Junior Member

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    Here is another way to productively use such things:

    https://tinyurl.com/3ycbj4

    Protein from Thin Air:
    Breeding Fly Maggots for Poultry Feed

    Using food grade 5 and 7 gallon buckets, I drilled numerous 3/8-inch holes in the bottoms, sides, and screw-on lids. (Holes of this size allow flies to enter, but prevent pecking by the chickens.) My buddy Sam keeps me supplied with 30-35 lb beaver carcasses. These I seal inside the buckets. After just a few hours, flies have “blown” the carcasses with eggs, which within a day hatch into a mass of greedily feeding larvae, or maggots.

    Suspend the Buckets
    Please note that for this system to work, it is essential that the buckets be suspended, either by hanging (from a tree or a rafter of a shelter) or by placing on a wire platform. When the larva has grown enough to pupate, it has the instinct to leave the feeding medium and burrow into the ground—it will not pupate in the feeding medium. By suspending the buckets, I ensure that larvae migrating out of the carrion will free-fall, attracting the attention of the ever-alert chickens, who instantly snap them up.

    I have found the beaver carcasses from my friend to be tremendously productive. He also passes on the occasional raccoon, and I have even cycled the odd roadkill through my buckets, as well as a groundhog who sadly did not understand the intensity of my feelings about my sweet potato planting. When I slaughter poultry for the table, I now run the offal through the buckets as well—a more efficient, and productive, way of disposing of them than burying or composting. I even put in any domestic birds that died by accident, though of course do not use carcasses of birds who may have died of disease.

    Divide the Carcass
    No doubt the reader has anticipated potential problems with the use of carrion to breed maggots, so let’s consider them:

    Odor
    The first beaver Sam gave me I simply stuffed, whole, into my largest bucket. The bucket produced an abundance of maggots but, not surprisingly, smelled pretty “ripe” during the last few days of “processing.” I now have five working buckets, so I chop each beaver carcass into five pieces. I line the bottoms of the buckets with litter from the poultry house (mostly oak leaves), lay in the beaver chunks, then pad with more leaves around and on top, and screw on the lids. (The loose leaves do not impede access to the carrion by the flies.) With this adjustment, I find that the processing time—the time from carrion addition until the maggots have reduced it to fur and bones—is greatly accelerated, and there is very little smell. Indeed, I catch a whiff only when I am working in the immediate vicinity of the buckets. (Suburban flock owners, however, would do well to seek free protein elsewhere.)

    Curiosity seekers
    The buckets would certainly draw dogs, foxes, raccoons, and other curiosity seekers if allowed access to them. Therefore this system is useful only where access can be denied. I use electric net fencing, and never have problems with raids on the buckets. Placing the buckets inside permanent predator fencing would work as well. Only once have I had a visit from buzzards, drawn to that first heavily scented bucket. They hung around most of a day, clearly intoxicated by the heady aroma, but frustrated they could not get at its source. They finally gave up and lumbered into flight, never to return. I think the lack of repeat visits has much to do with the greatly reduced odor in the buckets these days.

    “Breeding flies”
    Many people have objected to my system because it amounts to a deliberate breeding of flies. Let me emphasize that I am breeding fly maggots, not flies, and actually my methods should decrease the ambient fly population. Imagine there are 100 female flies in the vicinity, and I manage to convince 20 of them that my carrion buckets are the best place imaginable to lay their eggs. They do so (rather than laying them elsewhere). But not a single fly larva gets to pupate and hatch—my sharp-eyed chickens see to that. I’ve just reduced the local fly hatch by 20 percent.

    Disease
    Naturally my reader, however dedicated to the ideal of self-sufficiency, will worry about the potential for generating disease out of carrion worked by maggots. I am duty bound to pass on industrial-strength warnings I’ve received to that effect: There is a condition the old-timers called “limberneck,” which turns out to be paralysis caused by botulin poisoning. My friends who warned me about limberneck insisted that it could be caused by maggots ingested by chickens from any source. However, in all the links they sent, the references actually described the condition associated only with spilled feed which had become wet, had soured and begun working with maggots, and then been consumed by the birds. Sounds to me as if the botulism bacterium was growing in the soured feed mash, not in the maggots. In any case, I have always avoided using a grain mash as a maggot breeding substrate. However, I fed carrion-bred fly larvae the entire fly season last year, and this season I have honestly lost track of the number of beaver carcasses I’ve put through my buckets—and I have not had a hint of a disease problem. Neither has my longtime mentor Joel Salatin, who follows beef cattle on his pastures with a big flock of laying hens, who scratch apart the cowpies for the maggots growing in them. Based on such solid experience, I conclude that the homestead flock owner need not fear disease if he chooses to tap into this rich source of free protein.
     
  12. teela

    teela Junior Member

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    Hi,

    Thought I'd just quickly add something re cats catching wildlife.
    There are 5 pages on this post but I only read the first and the last page (otherwise I'll be here all day) so someone may have mentioned the following already.

    I saw on tele (not sure if it was news or a current affair) these cat bibs...they look like a bib and seemed to be made of brightly coloured wet suit type material. The cat wears this around its neck and it prevents it catching wildlife. Not sure how it works, if it's the bright colour or if it somehow makes it difficult for the cat to pounce on its prey.
    They reckon the cat gets used to wearing it and also has the added benifit that it makes it easier to see on the road (so it doesn't become a flat cat) and one could also write the cats owners ph number ect on the bib.

    Anyway I have a tiny kitten (yeah yeah I didn't really want a cat but I caved in under pressure from the kids, it is a cute little thing and cats have such great personalities) I will try one of these cat bibs as soon as it grows big enough to wear one. Will see if works.

    Teela
     
  13. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    That sounds like a great idea, Teela. One very effective way to stop your kitten from growing into a wildlife killer is to keep it inside the house. The house can be an adventure playground for any cat, so there's no need to let it out. If a kitten grows up without any experience of the outside world, it will be easier to dissuade it from killing. Also, of course, have it desexed.

    My (desexed) black cat wears two small bells and a reflective name tag, which at least helps me find her in the dark, and spends very little time outdoors without me around.

    Most importantly, though, remember that humans are the most destructive creatures on the planet, and some of us who are in denial about that, prefer to scapegoat innocent cats. I think this is why some believe that cats are the greatest environmental disaster to befall the Australian continent, and that the extermination of cats will save the world.

    We saw what happened on Macquarie Island. First, they spent millions eradicating the cats, which were blamed for the extinction of native birds: https://www.environment.gov.au/minister/ ... jun03.html "Seabirds on Australia's remote World Heritage listed Macquarie Island, south-east of Tasmania, have been saved from extinction following a highly successful joint Commonwealth and Tasmanian Government campaign to eradicate feral cats."

    Cat-haters rejoiced.

    Now we have a real environmental disaster due to the failure to remove the real source of the cat's food, the rabbit. The birds appear to be in as much danger as they ever where.

    https://www.parks.tas.gov.au/macquarie/rabbitsfaq.html "In recent years rabbit damage on Macquarie Island has increased significantly. This has resulted in serious vegetation degradation and is impacting on burrowing seabirds that require vegetation cover around their breeding habitat."

    Once again, I'm not saying that the cat wasn't a problem on Macquarie Island, but that the automatic hatred of cats has caused "experts" to lumber in with an ill-conceived "solution" without first fully understanding the nature of the problem. The absence of cats on Macquarie island may prove to be as big a problem as their presence was, because restoring environments to their "pristine state of balance" (there's no such thing - nature is to dynamic for that) is not as simple as just wreaking revenge on on one innocent player in the drama.

    Teela, love your cat. You'll learn a great deal from it.

    We're all made of the same "stuff", you know. There is no "other". That's just an illusion, created by fear. I can't put it any more simply than that.
     
  14. ejanea

    ejanea Junior Member

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    I don't have cats, but I do have chickens. Whenever one dies (usually from old age at my place) I put it at the bottom of a hole and plant another fruit tree on top of them. I don't know how much difference it makes to the fruit trees, but I like the idea of having chickens who have provided so many eggs somehow honoured in a funny kind of way. They can continue to be useful and a part of my life. I know where many of them are. My daughter even suggested that it made it possible to have two of the ingredients for peach pie from the same chook.

    This discussion reminds me of the religious instruction teacher that I had in about grade 3... back in the 50's... who asked the class what we thought happened after we died and what we would like to happen to us. I was considered to be one of the least clever kids in the class. I caused a bit of a stir by announcing that I'd like to go to the "blood and bone works", the only place that I knew that one could be useful. I was removed from that religious instruction class.
     
  15. Nibbler

    Nibbler Junior Member

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    Er the mainland of Australia HAD the same complement of carnivores as Tassie, at least before humans/dingoes got to it. However if you're talking about the Macquarie Island example referred to then I doubt it ever did.

    The devastation of our native species is profound all over the country, but the question is what proof is there that cats have caused it? I haven't found any yet.

    Well there's no need to be insulting to other posters! People were just putting their views forward. I'm sure you didnt mean 'keep your cats close' to be as sinister as it sounded either.
     
  16. Ryan

    Ryan Junior Member

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    I think that growing maggots for chook food is a great idea. Can this be done with non animal food scraps? I think it is more sanitary to put a carcass under a fruit tree. I have done this with deceased pet cats and chooks and the trees are out growing trees of the same species that I planted without a carcass.
     
  17. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Do you get termites or other cellulose eating insects there in Florida Ryan?

    They're another easily managed form of live chook fodder...just create stacked levels of materials they feed on, turn one over occasionally...and get out of the way!!! :lol: 8)
     
  18. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Ryan,

    We compst chook carcasses for maggot raising, but, being vegetarian, we use mostly coffee grounds, onion skins, banana peels, pineapple skin, egg shells, tea leaves, garlic paper, etc. whatever the chooks can eat directly, they eat directly, otherwise they go in the "maggot bin" for a week to 10 days, by which time they are crawling with maggots.

    When the bin is ready, we haul it off to a location. The chooks know the score and would follow me to NYC if I was carrying that bin...

    We spread it out over a small area. Since we use 10 gallon rubbermaid tough tote boxes, this is a relatively small amount of maggots.

    The chooks scratch and spread the compost, eat all the maggots, poop, and generally fertilize an area. The compost is usually hot, so care needs to be taken not to place it too close to other plants we are using, the compost kills the grass! but up hill a distance from a pineapple swale works well, and it breaks down as it washes down the hill. The pineapples love it.

    Jez, I like the raising of termites. We look for their nests and haul them, but encouraging them.... very clever.

    Tas, I love your step by step method. It is more organized than what we are doing! We also get less carcasses, or offal, since we only have meat when we have courses. Hahaha, on the goundhog!
     
  19. Jez

    Jez Junior Member

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    Another of Bill's ideas Chris...he's the clever bugger...I'm just passing it on. :wink:

    Now I think of it, he also recommended using a similar method for raising cockroaches and slaters as poultry food.

    I perhaps best like the idea of doing it on a raft over a productive aquatic area...where can they all go but to sooner or later become fish food. :twisted: 8)

    Terrific method for extending your edge effect eh? :D
     

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