Cats as compost activators.

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by ho-hum, Jun 14, 2006.

  1. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    I must add, however, that I think that composting is a brilliant way to facilitate the transition of life forms from one manifatation to the next. :wink: Cheers.
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Alex M :)

    I love your work! As an aside: At what point in time did cats enter the Australian landscape, if not when Governor Phillip and has crew of merry men and women arrived? Did cats arrive like the dingo, many years prior to the Europeans?

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  3. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    I am told that cats arrived in the top end as much as 600 years ago. It's in the link I posted originally, but I'm not sure many actually read it. here's an excerpt:

    And the link:
    https://www.animalsaustralia.org/default ... &idL2=1310

    I often think of my former hatred of cats when I buy meat from supermarkets, or manufactured goods that I know to be the product of exploited labour, or watch the war on tv. What was it, I wondered? The apparent deviousness of the cat? The way they kill? Their apparent disloyalty? Their self-centredness? The way they toy with their pray? All of these are aspects of the self, I realised. Cheers. :cat:
     
  4. Forest Fairy

    Forest Fairy Junior Member

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    God you are a morbid lot for such a lovely Sat afternoon. All this talk about dying, being composted, flat cats, dead cat etc etc.
    To think I was going to put my feelers out for a housesitter to look after my abode and babies (2 big fat lazy persian cats) for a bit on the site.
    Me thinks this is not a good idea at all now.
    Cheerio.....
     
  5. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hahahahah, Jules!

    We have two great cats, they "speed compost" rats, bats, ground moles, scoropions, tarantulas, cockroaches. They are lap kitties, too, but ferocious predators. They take a creature and turn it into little nuggets of fertilizer, spread discretely all over the farm!

    Our two little cats are nice, and there are bigger cats around, jaguars, pumas, ocelots, maguays, jaguarundis. This is not Australia, so we don't have the invasive problem with house cats, and house cats here are also prey for larger cats, or grey foxes, or hawks and eagles, or snakes, so it all balances out.

    I am partial to our cats! But I understand that cats can be invasive pests....
     
  6. murray

    murray Junior Member

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  7. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    Feral cats are the product of mankind's poor judgment... AGAIN. Granted, the spaying of cats is something that didn't used to happen, but neutering animals WAS. The bozos just couldn't be bothered to do it. And, like most problems created by man, something else ends up paying for it.

    What I find most amusing in people's rabid dislike of cats: they find obnoxious in cats many of the same traits they find appealing in themselves and other humans!

    And I would like anyone to point out any damage by cats on the face of the entire earth that hasn't been FAR exceeded by man.

    Oh, by the way, did you hear the news flash that floot's head has been found? Three guesses where they found it.

    Sue
     
  8. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Sue, I have to admit I am more of a dog guy than a cat person. I like dogs personality, warm, loving, kind, protective, affectionate, and cats are more of the ignoring, indifferent, cold, distant, pet-me, pet-me, pet-me, pet-me-the-wrong-way-and-I'll-bite-you type.

    But I love our cats ability to keep pests in control. Jaguars hunt wild boars, and cats hunt mice, and its all good.

    Um, so, where'd they find Floots head? At a Wampanoag traditional fall harvest celebration? Under a tree where the topless blond left it after sawing it off with a blunt object? Deep in a pile of compost? Um, I just can't figure it out! Help me here!
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Now, now you two... Like all the rest of us, Floot's head is too often in front of a computer screen, and as I my mother says, if you can't say something nice, or at least useful, shutup.

    Alex, I had never heard of the idea that cats arrived on Australia at about the same time as the dingo, but I suppose it is quite plausible. I had heard of the aboriginal cat dreaming and that it is now regarding as bush tucker, but imagined that this was a similar development to such things as the "toyota land cruiser dreaming".

    I haven't read your link, but I wonder if there is much indication as to how widely they became established? Did they like the dingo quickly span much of the continent, or did they remain in the north?

    One interesting point of difference I imagine between the dingo and the cat, would be that the dog was domesticated by people, as well as wild, whereas I have never heard of the aboriginal people keeping cats as pets... (of course, until reading this I would have bet my left and right toelnails that they arrived with Captain Cook or the 1788 mob)
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Richard, I think that basically what Sue was saying was nicer than the concept of killing cats with hateful glee. And I found what Sue said to be useful.... it made me laugh! And, laughing, I had to reciprocate....

    Cats are useful. I consider my cats integral parts of our agro-ecosystem. As pest control, they are exceptional, eating mice and rats, keeping our stores of corn and beans (relatively) rodent free without any biocides. They also do fantastic duty as friends and entertainment. But my favorite part is how they discretely, with modesty and mellowness, they cycle those former pests back to the soil as manure, even taking the time to bury their pest-turned-nutrient-nuggets! Truly the cat is an amazing part of the permaculture farm if properly managed.

    Management is the key. We manage ours by keeping two females, hence, no litters, no population explosion.

    I think Murray has the right idea. New plan: How about we give cats scaled down Remington model 700s chambered in .308? Properly armed, they can be even better predators than before! The can shoot rats, they can shoot mice, they can rise up, rise up and defend themselves from overzealous composters!

    Do you think we should spay uncompromizing and overzealous cat haters, keep them from passing that cat hating gene into the future? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Alex M and Everyone :)

    Thanks for that most recent link, Alex. I found it well written and excepetionally well referenced. I did learn much. However, I stand by my original point - cats kill, often indiscriminately and often out of none other than the need to abide by their inate drive to hunt.

    Yes, well cared for cats can be seen as a minimal threat to native fauna. However, I've lost count the number of times I've seen a cat (often a well-fed, pampered, 'lap' cat) take a native bird out of our nieghborhood's ecosystem. In the past I've attempted to find the 'owner/carer' of such cats and bring to their attention the fact that their cat is killing wildlife. More often than not the said 'owner/carer' denies that it is 'their' cat that is responsible. 'Their' cat would never do such a thing. 'Their' cat is well fed, wear's a bell, only goes out at day-time, etc., etc., etc.

    Personally, I can't take the life of another being (nor be the cause for a life to be taken), so cats have nothing to fear from me. However I have many friends who take no delight in killing what they see as 'feral' cats, or cats that kill. I guess some of these cats are indeed feral and others maybe just unfortunate to be caught in the act. High powered air rifles are the weapons of choice. I guess my friends see this as a humane way of exterminating the exterminator.

    Personally, the only way I see of attempting to control any form of 'pest' animal is through biological control. To accept a cat into your life can be a fine and noble thing to do. To allow that cat to (indiscriminately) kill is to allow that cat to be doomed to countless rebirths in the lower realms (personal opinion - but as a Taoist one that I'm sure you will appreciate, Alex).

    Any being, human or non-human, that makes the decision to eat the flesh of another being is ultimately responsible for the death of that other being - unless you happen to only eat the bodies of things that were killed with no input (direct or indirect) from one's self. People who only eat roadkill, for example.

    I realise that I've got off topic here a bit, but I guess it is all relevent. To those that find the topic of dying, death and what happens to a body once the original (insert personal choice of 'belief' here) has 'moved on' offensive, confrontational, scary, or whatever, I'm sorry. It is not my intention to cause any being any pain or discomfort. I realise that when discussing the topics of dying, death, and disposal of remains one has to be sensitive to the wishes of others. So with this in mind, may all sentient beings live long and happy lives, may their respective deaths be pain free and peaceful, and may their rebirth (personal belief) be auspicous and free from suffering.

    Finally, it's my understanding (based on studies conducted during the last few years) that dingo's came to Australia approximately 4000-years ago.

    Cheerio all,

    Mark.
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Interesting Mark, about the 4000 year figure. I'm definitely not that well read in Australian paleontology! Does the new theory still use dingo's to largely account for the decline and disappearance of the thylacine on the mainland?
    I agree with everything you say about pet owners being in denial about their animals instincts. Cats and dogs are predators. Sure it isn't their fault that they want to kill native animals, but it still isn't very good for the native ecosystems.
    Nothing is static in ecology for sure, but if we can be smart enough to recognise that plants and animals that we've introduced are causing extinctions, and can take measures to prevent that, by controlling populations of these invasive species, well, isn't that just taking responsibility?
    Mark, as for not taking life, why is the life of a cabbage or a pumpkin seed less sacred to you than a chicken or a cat or whatever? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to attack your belief system or anything, I just don't get the distinction. Being as how everything is interconnected I don't see how anyone can avoid being responsible for the taking of life and continue to live.
     
  13. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Richard :)

    Yes, it has been widely theorised that the introduction of the Dingo (Canis lupus dingo) was responsible for the decline and eventual extinction of the Thylacine (Thylacinus cynocephalus) here on mainland Australia. Competion for prey between the Thylacine and the larger, more powerful Dingo meant that the former had no chance. The remaining strain of the Thylacine that had found its way to the island sate of Tasmania (hence the name, Tasmanian Tiger) was to survive in the Dingo-free environment right up until that other great predator, Homo sapian sapian (Man) shot, poisened and clubbed it into extinction earlier in the 20th Century.

    Interestingly enough that other great Tasmanian icon, the Tassie Devil (Sarcophilus harrisii), was once an inhabitant of mainland Australia too. It is also theorised that this species was to suffer a similar fate to that of the mainland Thylacine and was last sees on the mainland approximately 600-years ago. Luckily the Tassie Devil has managed to keep a toe-hold in the 'Apple Isle', but its survival as a species is tenuous now given that it is facing extinction via 'Devil Facial Tumor Disease'.

    Both of these cases highlight another serious threat that cats pose to the remaining small carnivorous species (Quoll spp, etc.) that inhabit Australia . This threat not only comes in the form of predation, but also as a result of competion for prey.

    Concerning my belief in the sanctity of life: Yes, a cabbage does have 'life', but does a cabbage feel pain, or indeed, does a cabbage possess a mind? I don't know, but one has to draw a line somewhere. This is the distinction I have made. It is not an easy life having to reconcile the loss of one life for the giving of another, but we do try our best. Imagine wondering each time when one bathes if one is indeed responsible for the deaths of literally millions of micro-flora that inhabit our very skin? Or imagine how difficult it is to traverse through the wild terrain and wonder with each footstep if one is literally killing millions of soil biota? Yes, it's not an easy life, but it is one that is lived with a sense of humility and the belief that I do not have the right to decide if another species should live or die. I'll leave that process in the soul domain of Gaia, for I believe it knows what is best for the good of the planet.

    Some decent references for you, Richard:

    https://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter/nsf/We ... 358KH?open

    https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/npw ... oll_survey

    https://www.epa.qld.gov.au/nature_conser ... e/dingoes/

    https://www.parks.tas.gov.au/wildlife/ma ... lacin.html

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  14. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Well after all this Im having a rethink on my thoughts here goes....


    Cats...Yeah ok black plague et all.....

    Cats need responicple owners ...Strelise the cat ....OR the OWNER.

    Death,Dying and Disspersal

    Wishing for death in bed with a smile on my face.....

    Dying ...Shortest possibly painless outcome ..ie " see above"

    Disspersal.......Quickly and hopefully dignified..My Originol Request was to Be cremated then ashes spread around the ground Of Manchester Uniteds Football Ground..Interspersed with numerous Soppy classical clasic Songs, to be played during my service..

    Been altered to ...Spot of Sexual tom foolery follwed by massive :painless heart attack" falling into my Aquaponics set up and becoming part of my closed cycle of life in my back yard.And serving Yabbies and fresh trout at my "Wake"smoking a bit of my crop,and think ....Well he wasnt such a bad bloke afterall was he..I try not to worry to much about eating meat as one day im quit possitive ill be feeding them back one day in some shape or form, seeing as were all in a closed cycle on this earth,and seeing as everythings is made up of atoms i probly fed all sorts of meat eaters etc over the past few million yeas or so.Just think One time a long long time ago I might of been a part of Julius Caesars Toe nails,or even worse atilla the huns toe jam.to name a few

    In the end the cat will probly out live humans in this part of the world
    and if we do erradicate cats, in the future we could to the movies and see
    "Planet of the Rats"

    Tezza
     
  15. Forest Fairy

    Forest Fairy Junior Member

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    HahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahahaHahahaha
    Tez, you should really consider going into Politics. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  16. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Isn't Tezza a gem? Tezza, you'd get my vote!
     
  17. Alex M

    Alex M Junior Member

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    Thanks to everyone who spoke up for cats. :thumbup: I was worried that I might be the only on this forum to have a cat. :cat: Now I know I am not alone. :D

    Environmental degradation is the responsibility of humans; cats are just our innocent agents. It's sad to see species extinction happening around us, but we must keep in mind that the first wave of human arrivals in Australia coincides with a large number of species disappearing, as well. Nature, as much as we like to romanticise it, is “red in tooth and claw.”

    Life on earth has been changing since the first single-celled forms set the dynamic adventure in motion, and it's had a few setbacks along the way. But life is a universal force, and death is its essential companion. Everything ends, but life itself is eternal.

    When Arjuna faced his enemies on the plain at Kuruksetra, he became fearful of the consequences of fighting and killing those who, although enemies in the battle, were also friends and family. He called on Krishna for guidence, and they spoke for days, finally Krishna said, "you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead." He went on, "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be." https://www.asitis.com/2/11.html

    Not one atom is out of place in the entire universe; everything is exactly as it should be. Our fears are our own invention; our own responsibility.

    Imagine what a global permaculture would look like. There'd be plants and animals that originated in all different parts of the planet, all living together in bioregions thousands of miles from their "native" habitats.

    It would be a nice world if we could stop projecting our fears "out there" and understand their origins within us, holding them up to the light and recognising them for what they are. Then we could truly live "for the good of all our relations".

    I do what I can to do no harm, in thought, word, or deed. I reckon I fail as often as not, but don't beat myself up about it, either. That can trigger a new cycle of projection onto some other, who "shouldn't be doing" this or that. My reactions are my responsibility. :dontknow:

    Cheers, everyone, and as much as possible, be at peace with yourself and all living things. 8)
     
  18. grease

    grease Junior Member

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    cats as compost activators

    Is it just cats or do dogs work just as well as compost activators :?:
     
  19. PULSE

    PULSE Junior Member

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    Your mother would work just as well Grease! :lol:
     
  20. grease

    grease Junior Member

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    cats as compost activators

    but she's not dead yet :shock:
     

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