Permaculture Design Course - How was yours run?

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by Boab, Jun 7, 2006.

  1. Chillichook

    Chillichook Junior Member

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    Hi Terence,



    I hear your reply, and understand exactly where you are coming from.

    However, the council does care about a putrid smelling toilet, the health department does care when people who eat on the premises get salmonella, the health department and rspca does care when animals are sick or injured.

    And so do I.

    I want NSF to be around for a very long time, for ALL the community to be a part of and enjoy. At this rate it won't be. :(
     
  2. Chillichook

    Chillichook Junior Member

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    Sliding Scale Fees

    Can anyone out there tell me if it is normal or common practice to charge for an educational course on a sliding scale?

    Northey streets charges are as follows:
    $ 650.00 income less than $ 20 000
    $ 800.00 income less than $ 45 000
    $ 950.00 income more than $ 45 000

    Actually, I stand corrected because half way through the course they have put the prices up to:

    $ 700.00 income less than $ 25 000
    $ 875.00 income $ 25 000 - $ 50 000
    $ 1050.00 income of more than $ 50 000

    So I guess, my next question to anyone out there is..

    Do you feel that sliding scale fees, devalues a product/ course?
    (the value of the product ie: the course, is a little as what the lowest amount requested for it is)

    Its a bit like saying if you are on the dole, you only have to pay 50c for the same McDonald burger that someone who works their ring off, to improve themselves and income has to pay $2.50, seems somewhat rude to ask a hurting taxpayer (and make no mistake, paying tax hurts!) to pay for the person on the dole and then pay more or be penalised because they are not on the dole...

    And I would love to be corrected if I am mis informed, but I believe its illegal... :shock:
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I hope it isn't illegal because I think it makes a lot of sense. Changing prices in the middle of a course is pretty weird though. I would just pay what I thought I was up for at the beginning and tell them to get more organised.
    As for the sliding scale, lots of Permaculture courses are run on this basis to my knowlege. PRI used to give free tuition to students from developing countries for example, and allowed a certain amount of work trade to reduce the cash price for a certain number of "dole bludgers" etc.
     
  4. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Oh sorry, I just reread the whole thread properly and see that you didn't continue with the course so please ignore my comments about how much you should pay them.
    Boab, I wouldn't mind getting rid of my other toenail altogether actually as it is perpetually ingrown. :(
    Anyway, I was actually trying to support you to communicate your feelings of dissatisfaction with the NSCF course to the appropriate people. I didn't intend to refute that your course was badly run. How would I know? I was trying to ask who was responsible! And I was just passing on my own experience that I found Dick, Richard, John and Tash all to have a lot to teach me (and vice versa, I might add) when I worked with them. Of course, I wasn't giving them any money, so I was less likely to be dissapointed wasn't I?
    I think I may have written about this elsewhere, that I think it is a mistake for us to charge for courses at all. For one thing, it sets you up for failure if you don't reflect similar standards as professional educators, and for another, in a majority of cases, people have to go off and do awful, unsustainable things ("work their rings off") to get the money to pay you. Crazy!

    Now, if NSCF offered PDC's in exchange for labor in maintaining and developing the gardens, who could complain?

    By the way,
     
  5. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Richard, this thread has given me so much food for thought as well as courage. I thought I was alone in my thoughts and it appears that this is not so.

    Chillichook, I appreciate your input regarding the PDC. It was a great loss to have you leave (you, too, Permanut) and I hope that you keep on with permaculture and the farm. Because the farm needs new energy. Vibrant, loving souls who aren't territorial about their patches. Yes, I noticed that mid way through the prices went up but presumed that these would apply to the following courses. And yes, for what you (don't) get, these prices are exhorbitant.

    However, I'm not sure whether the sliding scale would be illegal or not. I would certainly agree with Richard with regards to labour exchange as opposed to financial discrimination. TAFE offers permaculture training (although government accredited) and makes no such discernment. The concessions granted for some courses they provide are subsidised by the government and are subject to quotas. TAFE also adhere to a strict and wide scale teaching requirements (teachers must be qualified via accredited teaching courses) - something very lacking in the PDC.

    Richard, I hear you regarding the money issue but to offer the courses for free would further exacerbate an already appalling situation I believe. What I really feel should be done is to ensure that trainers are properly trained. That is, undertake courses substantially longer than those currently offered which are run via uniform and uniformly assessed rules (meted out by the Permaculture Institute?) so that a global standard is applicable. Currently, there is no standard in permaculture training because at the moment it's all over the shop. This is very evident not only in the information regarding such teaching that I have perused but even moreso in the other, far more comprehensive PDC courses people have attended (which I wish I'd known about!)

    If permaculture is to gain any vestige of accountability in society, how it is delivered needs to be addressed and something done about it. My greatest concern here is that many people are being turned off by these rocketing prices and lacklustre training. Like me, they can't afford to move around or avail themselves of other, far better courses than the one I am currently attending and, like me, think that this is what permaculture offers.

    Through my own investigation, part of which have taken place right here, I know this not to be true and many of you have brought tears of hope to my eyes with what is truly out there. I am not a brave person by any means and the thought of writing a complaint makes me nervous but some things just can't be run away from. As one lovely fellow student said to me recently - if you run away from something you give that something all your power. You remain silent, unnoticed and untried and the world loses a gift. The gift of You.

    I think I'm going to start writing that letter of complaint.

    I thank you all very sincerely for your responses.
     
  6. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Hi Boab,

    Re: changes needed to PDC delivery.

    This is happening.

    I'm currently doing a practical permaculture course with Janet Millington on the Sunshine Coast and plan to do her PDC later this year at her Permaculture crayfish farm at Eumundi (which by the way is $440 - bring your own food and accommodation is extra).

    Janet who is a teacher by trade, along with others, are very active in developing permaculture teaching and most importantly, course delivery to students, to a higher quality accredited level. This is all being planned without threat to the current PDC as it stands for people who still wish to complete one.

    More info about these changes is available on the Djanbung Garden website, and the Permaculture International Ltd website.

    I can put the study I'm doing with Janet, plus assessment of prior learning all toward a Diploma of Permaculture if I want later.

    Cheers,

    Sonya.
     
  7. Chillichook

    Chillichook Junior Member

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    Hi Boab,


    I would love Northey Street, to reach its potential and I don't have the answers on how that would be achieved.
     
  8. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Dont take itpersonally was meant as on the whole"Humans" not any particlar person....I agree lotsa people equals lots of different ideas....Unfortunatly some are right ..some are wrong........

    I dont know the place at all i was only trying to help and not start off a witch hunt ...on here we never know really who we talking too.....Sometimes i wonder who is right whoo is wrong.....But one thing i do know is......That giving any bad publicity to Permaculture via our idle chit chat can end up having a negative effect betweeen those who know Northey,as a ok place into 2 sides with opposing veiws that may lead to even worse attitudes then before with those who dont know northey......

    Tezza
     
  9. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Forums/threads can often develop into chinese whispers, particularly as we can all miss a post or even 'bump' someone along the way. Some folks use the maxim of 'if I post last i win' which is even crazier.

    Boab came to our forum called 'PERMACULTURE RESEARCH INSTITUTE' with legitimate concerns and questions about the standards set by a PDC.

    All good healthy stuff!!

    To have the forum turn it into a 'Northey St' thread misses the point. People will have opinons based on their environmental factors, which will differ according to the individual and their experience.

    Boab asked for advice from a forum with a pretty big name about expectations of a PDC and to some extent that has been addressed.

    For example, if a PDC'er were to visit my place they may comment that the front half of my house yard has pandanus, frangipani and redgum in it and then follow up with a 'why'? See I like pandanus and the redgum and frangipani my wife likes and they are too hard to kill. Do they 'fit' a Permaculture Utopia, nope but they are staying anyway.

    This is not a 'proper' permacultured front yard but it is mine so I do not have to conform.

    The problems with any display property is that they have to cope with visitors, experts, volunteers, inspectors etc that all have a set of expectations. I feel my property was a nice example of what you can achieve but did I actually produce:
    fibres
    run-off
    readily combustible fuel
    wood
    electricity
    income

    To each of these my answer would be .....''ummm well sorta''.

    If you are a display property each and every element of permaculture must be addressed. Given that most of these enterprises are run on a shoe-string by well-meaning people then the results they produce for a community are staggering. Sadly, some of us may rightfully notice their shortcomings. It is all about perspective.

    Interestingly, this is a 'standard' that in my reading Mollison & Holmgren didnt ever demand. Permaculture was all about giving people hope and the knowledge to do what you can with what you have.

    Otherwise Permaculture, for 'purists' would be all about teaching us all to be self-reliant subsistence farmers. This not a bad thing or even unhealthy, Pemaculture was all about doing what you can within the framework of what you have.

    Let's leave the high & mighty to the religious groups and let us 'do what we can with what we have'.

    This is my small effort at re-orientating this thread back to the original question and why it was asked, without offending or confronting anyone.

    floot
     
  10. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Yes, it does.
    I am not comfortable with people being named and then portrayed in an unfavourable light. While it is understandable that people are disappointed, as Tezza has pointed out, allowing that disappointment to turn bad creates a 'witch hunt' attitude which achieves nothing except more angst. I admire Dick immensely and of all the people at the farm, the last people I would cite as being vindictive (of which there are a few who do well at this), Dick and Richard would not even make consideration.

    Floot, I agree, but bear in mind that Mollison & Holmgren didn't demand money either. When money is involved, particularly large amounts of money that are now required to attend PDCs, the dynamic changes as do obligations thereby creating new responsibilities that must catered for and to.
     
  11. carollillith

    carollillith Junior Member

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    I'm doing my PDC through Permaculture Visions, starting early this year ... I've been reading about Permaculture for decades and I'm sure it's influenced many of my decisions over the years ... but this is the first time I've been tempted to formally study ...

    In part I chose to do it this way because of geographic isolation (but I'm not usually this isolated) mainly it's because of the flexibility the online course offers ... sometimes I spend solid periods of time in a 'Permaculture frame of mind' and wander around the farm with both vision and a sense of purpose ... other times I'm too busy to do more than concentrate on the chores that need to be done ...

    and from the exposure I've had to the course, it seems both informative and thought provoking, lots of questions and assignments along the way, a few are required or recommended, many are optional but the process of doing them has been invaluable ... I've learned lots too!!!

    I miss having the face-to-face comments of other participants but the teaching material includes so many contributions from other students (there have been almost 600 students) that I feel part of a tradition, learning and passing on information at the same time ... and joining this forum has provided some of the missing contact.

    Fortunately I am comfortable with self directed study and learning from written material ... there is lots of it. I sometimes wonder how someone who didn't like reading would cope with the sheer volume of words!

    The course can be delivered entirely online, April communicates well in cyberspace and both she and her home base "feel" very real to me from email contacts and the course materials ... it's an option well worth considering!
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    We hosted a course here last year, with Penny Livingston and Toby Hemenway, two very qualified teachers who brought a wealthy of information and enthusiasm to the course. Bringing them cost money, and the price of the course covered them, as well as all of the food (most of which was grown for this course), limitless carafes of coffee (locally produced!) and transportation and a fee to the owners of noteworthy farms.

    Earlier, the question was wether or not people should charge for PDCs, and I think they should. I have lived in the developing world all of my adult life, over 20 years. I have worked in one capacity or another in development for much of that 20 years. I have worked with NGOs, for NGOs, with CBOs, with cooperatives, as an employee, under contract, and what I have learned is that free things corrupt.

    This is probably goint to rub some people the wrong way, and there is a difference between gifts and charity and "free things" but here the people, mostly Kekchi and Mopan Maya up country where we are, but the same holds true to some extent with the Mestizos, the Creoles and the Garifuna, is that free things provide a disincentive to work, and continued free things creates a culture of dependency that is destructive to the people.

    When i worked at the cacao coop, we gave trees away one year, and the nursery was rushed, all the trees were taken.... and they sat in the yards until dry season came.... very few of them got planted because the people didn't value them. The next year we sold the trees, at a subsidized price where the burden of payment was shared with the coop, and the nurseries took a lot longer to get emptied. Because the farmers had something invested in the trees, all of those trees were planted and tended, which was more valuable for the coop than all of the free trees.

    Habitat for Humanit builds houses for poor people, which is a very worth while endeavour, but sometimes good intentions do dam,age, too. A very good friend of mine who has worked a lot in Africa for the Red Cross, the UN, CARE, etc told me an interesting story:
    Some people came to a village he was working in, and they found the most destitute man in the village. They took pictures of his miserable little hovel, his measly possessions, and they proclaimed they would help him, and, in fact, they did. They built this man a house, a really nice house. In fact they built this man the nicest house in the village.
    Why was this man so destitute? What made his situation that much worse than all the other people in the villages? Because he was a drunkard, a layabout, a gambler, a philandering whore monger.
    Lesson in this village: If you are a drunkard, a layabout, a gambler, a philandering whore monger, white people will come and give you the nicest house in the village. :lol: That is what the village took away from this experience. Sad but true!

    The local pharmacy gets closed down when the free drugs arrive, and when the aid organizations pack their tents and go home, there is no local source for drugs any more.

    Now, um, my point is that moving instructurs to places taked money. And feeding students takes money, or the time to grow the food (as we did), which displaces time that could be spent pursuing money.

    This was what we did. We provided a very good experience. The teachers were wonderful, the food was great, varied and fresh. The coffee was neverending! The graduates of our course got a good course, and their needs were met at each step of the way. The feedback we got was entirely positive, with the exceptions that the Belizeans wanted more meat, which we will meet next time.

    Half of the people were Belizean, and of the 9 Belizeans, 7 of them had their tuition paid in full by Protected Areas Conservation Trust. Of the seven organizations that took the course, we sponsorted two additional students, one additional student from an NGO we think very highly of, and one additional student from Ministry of Agriculture. For us as an NGO, we felt that doubling the participation of these two organizations would make information retention and dissemination more likely.

    If someone in Belize, a private citizen not attached to an NGO/CBO/Ministry of Ag had asked for a discount, we would have made that available, because making money here is really hard, but noone asked, and we were well subscribed.

    We also offered scholarships to one participant each from two other organizations, but their schedules made committing the people who would benefit from this training to two weeks impossible.

    We had one woman ask for a discount in exchange for labour, and we arranged for her to stay a week longer and help wash all the sheets, clean up the buildings, which was a win/win situation for all, she got a slight discount, and we got a lot of help (and some excellent company!)

    And, Floot, frangipanis and redgum, etc are part of a permacuture system if you get enjoyment from them. Additionally, they also provide pollen for pollinators, and attract pollinators. They mine nutrients from the soil. They aerate the soil, and buffer the effects of suin wind and rain.

    Ornamentals are valuable in permaculture systems, but the Calvanist work ethic of food, food, food sometimes devalues them! Don't sell your ornamentals short! They are very important parts of your permaculture system. If anyone asks why, point out the valubale ecological services they provide, both to you, your land and the larger world around them.
     
  13. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    Hi all

    I'm also doing a 1 year PDC course at the moment. Like any course, some of the attendees are "educated", and some don't have a single clue and are learning from scratch. The course is designed to cater for the whole spectrum of knowledge.

    I didnt mind the $500.00 annual fee - I think that was fairly priced for a weekly 2.5 hour course plus weekend excursions to permaculture farms every 4-6 weeks or so.

    The best thing about the course is making contacts amongst like minded people - I don't think you can put a price on that

    cheers

    sprite
     
  14. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Heres my 2 bobs worth


    I too feel that "money" has just about ruined society as a whole and sooner its gone the better.....

    But i agree with Chris about the problems faced with giving things away..

    But i suppose that as we a;l still live in this money oriented world ..we do need it sometimes....try offering labour to the local electricity in exchange for power...

    I dont allways charge for my produce.....Depends how generous im feeling and to who the customer is 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

    Tezza
     
  15. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Everyone :)

    "Feed a person a fish, and you feed them for a day. Teach a person to fish, and you feed them for life". (My apologies to the original owner of this expression - for I know not who you are! But surely how I wish I did for I use your wonderful quote every day)

    IMO all forms of education should be free from the constraints of 'money'. This is not to say that the participants in educational programs should not be prepared to offer something towards the 'cost' of the course, for I think everyone can gain something from the notion of mutual exchange. After all, it does all come back to 'cycles of energy' - sooner or later someone or something is going to have to 'pay'.

    Perhaps we have got a little off topic here, so I shall leave off further expression of my thoughts for now.

    Good luck in the future with your studies, Boab.

    Cheerio to All,

    Mark.
     
  16. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    Very interesting to read about everyones different experiences with their permaculture accreditation.

    I'm one who feels, lets say, a little uncomfortable around the idea. The first time I read the manual was in my early teens, cover to cover. Other aspects my dear dad taught me when he still could (hippy/permaculture child!), other things I've picked up from all sorts of places. What I've taken that has lasted with me is that there are many ways of doing and seeing things, and I consider myself fortunate for being exposed to such ideas at a young age.

    But at what point does one 'qualify' in permaculture so to speak? I've never confined myself to the one discipline and find most food production methods and the environment intensly interesting. But this question of qualification has vexed me alot!

    If I've read/practiced/visited enough sites do I 'qualify'? Does my other education count? (land and water scientist in training....almost bloody done!)....I actually want to do a course when funds permit, as well as one of Elaine Inghams....working from the inside I hope.

    Can one 'qualify' by experience? And can I clarify........ does one need the bit of paper to claim knowledge of permaculture methods?

    Cheers people
    Ichsani

    PS Murray, the permapedia is a great idea! Am I allowed to write anything in there considering I don't have a bit of paper for it? (I can however, reference my work from here to kingdom come if need be :) )
     
  17. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    G'day Ischani, the beauty of permaculture is that it is cross disciplinary rather than reductionist, complementary and holistic rather than divisive (the current list fracas notwithstanding)
    Much good work can and is being done within those three ethics and, as David Holmgren has stated, call it whatever you like as long as you do it, we all bring a unique perspective and a unique contribution according to our skills, abilities and personalities.

    Bill Mollison was adamant that we only need a PDC to understand the basics across different regions and climatic zones, and then to go out and practice. The original PDC is enough for many and all that we need to use the term permaculture professionally. https://www.tagari.com/index.php?page_id=18

    Accredited Permaculture Training (APT) was a response to the perceived threat of TAFEs running permaculture classes without referencing the ethics and principles, cherry picking the sellable bits and no more.
    Thanks to a lot of hard work by those involved in the APT package people now have the option of studying various streams within a framework that is nationally recognised, if they so choose.
    I'm currently gathering RPLs (recognised prior learnings) towards a Cert'IV in permaculture (I need more hands on experience for the diploma) and taking the Cert'IV in training and assessment that is required to teach in TAFE, so the long winded answer is yes, your other education does count, if you can document it and if you want to go down the teaching path


    The following is part of a 2004 post to the PC Oceania list from Robyn Francis on APT

    ....Cert IV has 1 urban design unit and 1 rural design unit.
    Built environment comes under the appropriate technology unit which applies to both urban & rural.
    There are 2 units dealing with bioregions and community development
    (which applies to both urban and rural and the relationship between urban
    and rural). Beyond the built environment, sustainable change means working with people, i.e. Community development, and in Cert IV there are 4 units relating specifically to community development and facilitation.

    The APT Diploma of Pc is actually more biased towards urban and community design than rural applications. See below:

    GROUP A Elective units (6 units from this list must be completed)

    PIL501A Carry out permaculture field research
    This can include research for urban systems

    PIL502A Design an integrated permaculture system
    These can be urban or rural systems

    PIL503A Develop a strategic plan for a permaculture project
    Essential for any system and particularly designed for human settlements and bioregional planning (urban & rural)

    PIL504A Manage a permaculture project
    Can be urban or rural

    PIL505A Plan the implementation of a permaculture project
    Can be urban or rural

    PIL506A Design and plan a sustainable settlement
    This includes physical design and social planning for both urban and rural
    settlements

    PIL507A Research and interpret requirements for a permaculture project
    This is largely focussed on legislative, planning and council requirements,
    options for legal structures etc - this unit designed with settlements in
    mind plus applies to other kinds of projects

    PIL508A Plan management strategies for overseas development projects
    Deals with rural and urban projects

    PIL509A Plan and design structures for permaculture systems
    This is fully about built environment, not only buildings but other
    infrastructures and designed primarily with settlements in mind plus other
    applications

    GROUP B Elective units (4 units from this list must be completed)

    PIL510A Prepare a community and bioregional development strategy
    This can be either rural or urban

    PIL511A Facilitate participatory planning and learning activities
    The participatory planning aspect is focussed on facilitating community
    action and design for urban and village renewal, community planning etc - is very much arising from work of Peter Cuming, Wendy Sarkissian and myself with community facilitation and consultation, plus Robyn Clayfields creative learning facilitation processes.

    PIL512A Plan community governance and decision-making processes
    This is designed for ecovillages, communities, cohousing, housing co-ops,
    which can be urban or rural-based.

    The following are generic units taught within a pc context. The diploma
    requirements are that 8 of 10 units are pc specific so only maximum of 2 of these can be included and would depend on the kind of pc activities/projects a diploma student is intending to work in. They are all applicable to both urban and rural situations and contexts.

    BSBADM504A Plan or review administration systems
    BSBMGT506A Recruit, select and induct staff
    RTC5203A Plan erosion and sediment control measures
    RTC5801A Provide specialist advice to clients
    RTC5912A Market products and services
    RTE5523A Develop climate risk management strategies


    The bioregional/community development units in both Cert IV and Diploma include bigger picture as well as neighbourhood context and include services, social catchments as well as natural environment factors. These units would address issues like public transport, energy & resource flows, waste & recycling, community education, development and settlement patterns etc etc. etc.....

    Cheers
    Rob
     
  18. RobWindt

    RobWindt Junior Member

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    Found a better description of APT in the archives, from Robyn Francis

    ...18 months ago Permaculture International successfully had 4 levels of Certificates in Permaculture, plus Diploma of Permaculture, registered with national accreditation authorities.
    This is a first for permaculture globally. Years of soul-searching, discussion and research went into this, and being able to offer a diversity of training at these standards with quality assurance is important not only for credibility but helps us meet many of the needs you and others have mentioned in various postings, including making courses more economically accessible.

    In short, the 4 levels of certification are:

    Certificate I in Permaculture
    Basics for beginners, how to care for plants & animals, live a conserver lifestyle, get to know your bioregion, get a garden started - it's perfect for high school students, problem learners, disadvantaged groups, youth programs etc (Last year a college in Melbourne had over 160 Year-9 students graduate with a Cert I in Permaculture which they did as an elective subject)

    Certificate II in Permaculture
    Skilled workers, trade assistant level, focus on maintaining systems, basic plant & animal knowledge & skills, working in community organisations, seed saving, operating water systems, basic alternative technology and natural building. This training suits the gardener, unskilled homesteader, ideal for people participating in community gardens, city farms, wwoofers etc

    Certificate III in Permaculture
    Trade certificate level with focus on implementation and coordinating
    maintenance services, constructing and installing technologies, pc structures, water systems, compost toilets, coordinating community
    projects, harvest and storage systems, conserving, drying, post harvest handling etc

    Certificate IV in Permaculture
    Advanced trade certificate - basic urban & rural property design (including public landscapes), operating a seed bank, planning & supervising implementation, planning production systems, appropriate technology & structures, community development, eco-enterprise skills, managing & operating a business, bioregional analysis & planning (including community economics), small group training and team supervision.

    Diploma of Permaculture
    Integrated design, field research, settlement design, community development planning & facilitation, strategic planning, legal & legislative requirements, tenure & legal structures, governance and tenure for communities, organisation development, eco-business management, managing overseas pc projects, basic project management, bioregional development strategies etc.

    I have my first certificate III and IV courses (2 semester program)
    running at present, a real joy to go beyond the PDC into the background knowledge and practical skills to make it happen and do a professional job. I'm looking forward to letting a bunch of highly competent pc practitioners and designers loose at the end of the year!!!!
    :)
    Ciao
    Robyn
     
  19. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    That Robyn Francis sure is one hell of good woman in my book.
     
  20. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Thanks Rob,

    That sounds great that its possible to count prior learning towards certificates. I think that they are something that I will focus on doing after uni is over and I have experience in a recognised position. They are certificates that I would very much like to have, considering that I already use the permie principles in the persuit of formal education, it would be nice to do 'officially'.

    Thanks again for replies

    You don't happen to know where Robyn runs these courses? I like the five level approach.

    Cheers
    I.
     

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