1. andihazelwood

    andihazelwood Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    Very soon we'll be having an earth mover come out and.... well, move earth.... for the first time on our 21 acres in Biggenden. In addition to leveling a house and shed pad, we're thinking we'd like to have some swales dug (in good permaculture fashion). Problem is, I've never even seen a swale up close. How long should they be? How deep? How wide? How far apart from the other swales? How many will we need? Our soil is decomposed granite, which means it is pretty much entirely sand. Will swales even do us any good in this case? The property is shaped like a polygon and is higher at the edges than in the center, so all the water naturally runs to the middle of the property (assuming it runs at all, from what we gather it pretty much sinks straight in). There's a satellite pic here: https://www.deandi.com/photos/AmeraliaSt ... erhead.jpg The red polygon is us, with the star being approximately where the house will go, with the hill behind the house being a bit steep. The dark line of trees is a dry gully, all the land gently slopes down to this point. I know that swales should run on the contours, so should we dig them in chained crescent moon shapes leading to the gully? Are there places they would be more important than others? Any input would be appreciated! I'll be posting this in a number of places, so apologies if you see it more than once! :)

    Thank you so much!

    Andi Hazelwood
     
  2. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I would think that sandy soils are particularly good cadidates for swales. In heavy clays they can perhaps present problems by oversaturating soils but this wouldn't be a factor in your case.
    Swales can be as big or small as you like. Bigger ones will hold more water back, obviously, but will disturb more earth and make more of a visual impact and bigger physical obstacle too. Essentially that is what swales are right? physical obstacles that force rain to infiltrate rather than runoff. At Tagari farm in northern NSW most swales were big enough to drive a tractor along the ditch, (when the ditch wasn't full of water), but there were also smaller, "wheelbarrow" size ones made by bobcats, and picks and shovels.
    If you do a search on this forum, Darren from Permaculture Biz talks about Geoff Lawton's theories about how swales should be spaced from each other according to how tall the trees you plant on them are going to get.
    HOw long the swales are is a function of your overall design. Swales can catch water shed from buildings and roads or natural drainages, and overflows can be directed into ponds and dams.
    An important point is that swales disturb a lot of soil, and as all good Permaculture gardeners know, "bare soil is a gardeners worst enemy". You want to be ready to plant up those swales as soon as possible with useful species. Otherwise you will lose soil vitality and soon enough it will be invaded by troublesome weeds and grasses.

    I would recommend that you spend some time with your land before doing major earthworks. In that time maybe you will also get opportunities to visit some Permaculture sites and get a feel for what swales can do for you and your land.
     
  3. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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  4. andihazelwood

    andihazelwood Junior Member

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    Thank you both for that- I can see that I've got a lot more research to do before having someone come in and start pushing dirt around for our garden! I will follow up on your suggestions and links. Thanks again!
     
  5. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Andi,


    You are getting good advice here. Mine isnt much different but here goes.

    Get your house built and then enjoy your property. I would keep earthmovers away till you have seen the storms & rain. Watch where water runs and pools. Sometimes it takes years to fully understand your lil piece of land in the bigger picture.

    In any district there are properties that get more rainfall, some get hit more by storms. All these variants can be turned into advantages if you observe and get it right....

    Interestingly, I had always seen swales as primarily being for flatter, drier landforms and keylining for hillier places but Richard and Sue both come from areas that dont traditionally lack rainfall. So I dunno how I arrived at that perspective.

    Cheers,

    Mike
     
  6. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    Gday Andi,

    I would like to suggest that all the advice you have been given to date on this site has been very sound indeed, and that you could do a lot worse than heed all of what you've been given.

    Further I would like to encourage you to consider the following:

    Generally speaking, and as with any well designed permaculture site, the site itself will always be the decider in exactly what permaculture practices you put into place. What do you hope to eventually grow on your property? Are you striving for a fully self sufficient site - a closed energy-loop system - or are you planning on having a system that incorporates the import and export of resources (goods and services)?

    What about water catchment? As you have been so rightly informed previously during this thread, swales are predominately used as a means of 'slowing down' the water and allowing for its infiltration into the land. Have you given any thought to actually catching and then storing some water in a dam, for example?

    In a fully integrated design, the above factors (and many more) should be taken into consideration even before the first shovel of dirt is turned over. Big machines are great for getting the big jobs done, but if the design is not functional and well matched to the requirements of the site, then big machines can make a big mess - very quickly!

    I too would urge you to continue to make observations of your site. Have you seen enough (rain) water falling on the site to enable you to see where it actually runs (it may not be visible above ground because as you say you have excellent drainage, but it will certainly still be running underground and this is often evident by what grows above - your hreavily wooded gully is a good example of this)?

    Have you observed a full season of shadow casts and been able to determine where the best locations are to take full advantage of solar gains?

    Many folk 'live' (caravan, tent, shed, etc.) on a site for a year or so before they even decide where to site their home. You have done very well to determine this early on in your development the importance of water. It really is the 'essence of life'.

    P.A. Yeomans spent the latter half of his life devoting himself to the study of water and how it plays upon the land. I too would encourage you to check out his life's work and read all that he has written (I'm a particular fan of his final piece of work - "The City Forest"). See Sue's post for links the the Keyline site.

    Likewise Darren Doherty is a whiz when it comes to pushing dirt around to best exploit the gift that rain falling on the land can be. Don't forget to check out his site and see what he can offer you in the form of knowledge, wisdom and advice.

    Above all, enjoy the process,and don't forget to keep us posted as to the developments that will take place at your site.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  7. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    swales

    Swales, swales, swales. I am eating, dreaming, scatter-mulching swales right now and thought this post was just me hallucinating in my exhaustion.
    I spent last weekend (Feb 19) with Geoff and Nadia putting 3 swales onto my 10-acres. They said they were small swales. (I guess they were by their standards). They were 1.5metres wide and one is about 250 – 300 metres across the property.
    I had already had a proper scaled survey of my property and Geoff chose the sites. He used a laser level to ensure they were -exactly precisely - on contour.
    On the ridge one spills to another, and then all 3 spill to the existing dam (which could do with enlarging).
    Like others here I recommend you get Darren to come and supervise, if you can. It is well worth the expense. I see it as like building a house. Some people don't put much value on the footings until they have structural problems later. Swales are the footings of large permie properties. In my thinking, get the swales right and a lot of other things fall in behind. Since the swales went in (ie, one week) I can already really distinguish numerous micro-climates across the property. Instead of it being one giant chunk, the property now has a harmony and places have emerged that are “obvious” for one use or another.
    R-on-M is right about having cover crops ready to go. In just a week I have a film of cowpea already evident and that is going to attempt to out-compete the non-productive plants (weeds).
    I love my swales.
     
  8. andihazelwood

    andihazelwood Junior Member

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    Thanks for that heuristics! Unfortunately hiring a professional consultant is out of our budget at the moement, which is why I'm trying to gather as much information as I can from the books I already own and from the internet! Sounds like your swales are already doing well for you, that's excellent! As I learn more I know that my options will become much clearer.

    ecodharmamark, our ultimate goal is to grow as much of our own food as possible, but we expect that it will take a long time before we know enough and before our land is capable enough to do that. We did consider a dam but two different dam guys told us that our soil won't hold water, that clay would certainly need to be trucked in, and that they couldn't guarantee it would hold water even then. We decided to forgo such a costly experiment for now, perhaps we'll consider it further down the line. I have seen a bit of the Yeomans info online, but just the little bit of it that I've seen is way over my head- but I will be giving it a further look.

    I think floot hit the nail on the head, get the house built and watch what the land does once we're there. All the while we'll be learning and experimenting with things on a much smaller scale- say, an acre of it to start!

    Thanks all for your detailed input, it is very appreciated.
     
  9. derekh

    derekh Junior Member

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  10. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day Andi

    I hope it all goes well.

    Give P.A. Yeomans another go, as dams are not the only means of storing water, and he certainly has some great ideas on catching, diverting, and - his masterpiece - getting it into the ground: "The Keyline Plan" (1954).

    You could try building a 'scale model' dam with the materials (predominately sand, by the sound of it) that you have on site, plus a 6x4 trailer load of clay/soil-mix, bentonite (etc.), to be trucked in. This will quickly determine whether a dam is truly a possibilty; if indeed a dam does figure in your overall plan. You don't need to "...hire a professional consultant" to do this. Just get in touch with your 'inner child', and make it like your playing in the sandpit again (assuming you once did :) ). After all, you can't successfully build any structure without a plan or a working model. Have a chat to Darren Doherty. It will not cost you a penny to say "G'day", and run a few ideas by him. He may very well have built dams in soil/conditions very similar to yours.

    Growing food for yourselves is an admirable chioce for using the land. May you grow and eat well!

    As they say: "Keep us posted".

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     

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