Permanence in Permaculture

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by bazman, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. Warwick Rowell

    Warwick Rowell Junior Member

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    multi-generational permaculture sites

    Here is where you have to look at the design of the invisible structures.

    By far and away the best method available now in most Australian States is having the land owned by a strata company, under some variation of the Strata Title Act/community title Act/Group Title Act... It is what we have used at Rosneath farm, and already we have proved that it is very resilient.

    I have a huge concern as to how we can retrospectively preserve your efforts. I have two examples in mind: Both wonderful examples of hard work and careful observation over many many years. The owners are getting tired, and worn out, well into their sixties...

    A crucial part of this issue is to find the funds for someone to "sit beside" these people for at least two years, to learn what they know. The unconscious knowledge inside their heads is now a major part of the success of the system, and someone else just taking over could make bad mistakes, even if they were willing to continue the good work.

    The strata titling allows the new people to have (and build) an equity stake, as well. Any further thoughts on this vexing issue??
     
  2. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day All,

    Excellent thread! Thanks everyone!

    Point taken, Richard. However, bulldozers do not destroy PC properties, people do. If we do not have a philosophical foundation on which to build our practices upon, then our practices (regardless of how well executed) will not have a sense of purpose or direction.

    True! Actions do speak louder than words. However, the pen (or the writings of, which stem from the mind) is mightier than the sword.

    From the above fantastic contributins to this fascinating topic, we can begin to see that sustainable PC development must incorporate both 'philosophy' (principles) and 'practices' (pathways).

    If people have the opportunity to read David Holmgren's book: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability, they will learn that the co-orignator of the permaculture concept believes that we must look beyond our current practices if we are to ever find true sustainabilty and harmony.

    "Permaculture is a dynamic interplay between two phases: on the one hand, sustaining life within the cycles of the seasons, and on the other, conceptual abstraction and emotional intensity of creativity and design. I see the relationship between these two as like the pulsing relationship between stabilty and change. It is the steady, cyclical and humble engagement with nuture that provides the sustenance for the spark of insight and integration (integrity), which, in turn, informs and transforms the practice. The first is harmonious and enduring ; the second is episodic and powerful. The joyful asymmetric balance between the two expresses our humanity". (Holmgren, 2003: p.271)

    Cheerio all,

    Mark.
     
  3. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Spending a few days in a wonderful garden like Jade Woodhouse's on the sunshine coast has inspired me to start learning permaculture design, the designs i'm bringing to life here are more based on what I have seen in the fresh as opposed to those I have read in my permaculture books to date. Everyone is different in how they learn, I like to see how something works so seeing a system in the flesh suited me better.

    I'm still learning and i'm yet to do a PDC, but I feel properties like this can inspire people like me into action, an action that has now changed my life.

    Jade sold her property last year so I don't know if it's being kept the same.
     
  4. freak_dk

    freak_dk Junior Member

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    The story about Tagari Farm

    The Tagari Farm property at Tyalgum got sold, because the local authorities made a hard time for the permie guys to run the place.

    Bill Mollison had to move back to Tasmania because of health problems (he had a couple of hardattakcs).
    Geoff Lawton and a group of other people managed the place for a few years, but decided to mve the PermaCulture Research Institute to the council next door, The Channon in Lismore. The Tagari property got sold.
    People, who had been connected to the place, actually think it is good it closed, because there was a lot of bad energy connected to the place.

    But it is not just a waste. Many things have been tried there, and the experinces and knowledge gained at the place is not lost.

    Karsten.
     
  5. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Karsten, are you that bloke that ran around in the full rain gear planting trees in the torrential downpour, and brought the aracacha plants with from the last place you were wwoofing?
    You make some good points. However, I remember hitching a ride with an old conventional farmer from the area, who mocked Permauculture, saying that Bill never grew enough food on that place to fill the back of a ute. I kind of really wish that Bill's vision had survived there and that Tagari Farm had produced many truckloads of many different kinds of food and proved that old farmer that there are better ways than spraying etc...
    Are you sure it has sold? The five acre piece went to Doug Dourough I think, but isn't the 148 acres or whatever it is still for sale?

    Warwick, your experiences with strata title/ group title/ community title and community living are very interesting to me, and I am sure many others here. I hope you elaborate on your thoughts at some stage.
     
  6. freak_dk

    freak_dk Junior Member

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    Hi Richard!

    Hi Richard.
    Yes, I am that Karsten :D

    I´m actually not sure if the big property is sold, but I know one of the farmers next door was interested in running some cattle there. That was in 2004. I went there to see how everything was growing about one year after it had been left. It looked good I will say. There was heaps and heaps of ripe fruit, just waiting to get eaten. The area where we put in all those trees (in the rain) was in a good balance. The paths between the houses where gone though (eaten by nature).

    Good to hear from you again Rich!

    Karsten
     
  7. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Yes, great to hear from you too Karsten. :D
     
  8. JaK

    JaK Junior Member

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  9. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Does sound like a lot of negative energy about that place :cry:

    Cathy
     
  10. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Well, the story I heard was that he bulldozed the food forest that appears in Bill's videos. Later Geoff Lawton clarified on this forum that he really just "widened the driveway" and that most of the trees are still there on the five acres.
    I think all told that there was way more positive energy put into that place than negative...
     
  11. Tamandco

    Tamandco Junior Member

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    Maybe if people don't want changes made to their property they shouldn't sell it!!

    Sorry if I rub people up the wrong way here but with all due respect, you guys are standing to walk away with a heafty profit based on current market values - cash in your pocket!!!

    You can't have your cake and eat it too!!!
     
  12. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    The Power of the Dollar those who live chasing dollars will die chasing dollars

    We musnt give in....Its a pitywe as a body"Permaculture" cant buy it/anything
    to save us from ourselves....Normal aussies can have things listed on a heritage trust etc.....Lets just take over power from the established parties and change the countries rules so we can save everything


    Tezza
     
  13. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Which guys? :lol:
     
  14. JaK

    JaK Junior Member

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  15. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Aha! So well said there EmG.
    But of course, the northern NSW property did grow a lot more than a truckload of food. Probably this year the fruitbats will do extremely well on all the unharvested mango's, black sapotes, bananas etc etc etc.
    I think that a lot of the problem is that Permaculture systems don't really mature until they are 10 to 15 years old, so with all the false starts and given that the idea is only 30 odd years old, it will take time for it to "crack the mainstream". But in the long run, a Permaculture farm is going to be the place to be... both in terms of actual local food security and income making potential.
    I disagree that grazing, forestry, horticulture and market gardening can't be called Permaculture. They are all aspects of it... But you know that.
     
  16. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day EmG,

    I do not know about Mollison, nor Tagari; I have never met him, and never been there. So I do not feel that I am qualified enough to make comment on either. But I have met Holmgren, and I have spent some time at Melliodora, and this is what I think in relation to he, and to Melliodora: Philosophy must exist if PC is to survive, and indeed thrive!

    After reading Holmgren's latest book (several times), "Permaculture: Principles and Pathways Beyond Sustainability", and viewing the eBook, "Melliodora - Hepburn Permaculture Gardens" (likewise, several times) I think I am starting to get a handle on what it is that Holmgren means when he says, "...that a sustainable lifestyle is a realistic, attractrive and powerful alternative to dependant consumerism.".

    Only 'starting to', mind you, for the personal journey back from a consumerist-led lifestyle is a long haul, and one fraught with many a temptation to someone who was spoon-fed up to 6-hours of TV a day, and all the 'lollies' one could eat as a child of the 70's.

    Concerning philosophy:

    I stand by my original statement in this very thread: "If we do not have a philosophical foundation on which to build our practices upon, then our practices (regardless of how well executed) will not have a sense of purpose or direction."

    What use is mindless action? It is mindless action that has driven we humans (and countless other spp.) to the edge of destruction (and in the case of the other spp. - over the edge!) It is therefore (I believe) imperitave that we base our actions upon our thoughts - in other words, we philophosise! So when I suggested that, "...sustainable PC development must incorporate both 'philosophy' (principles) and 'practices' (pathways)", I meant just that! The incorporation of both these elements. Surely you must agree that in order to have a positive action occur there must have been a positive thought preceding this action? Even your own 'signature', "Think global, act local." suggests this.

    Yes, Mollison may say that PC begins at our own back door. And yes, Holmgren has said (in my presence) that PC begins under our own two feet. However, l like to say that PC must begin in our own mind - for why wait until we get through the back door, or for that matter, look under our own two feet? Often by the time this happens, it's too late.

    As you say, "Think global, act local.", and I don't think you can get much more 'local' than our own mind.

    I enjoyed reading your post, EmG, it made me think :) . I especially like the "Relax, enjoy" bit. Same to you.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  17. dryland dweller

    dryland dweller Junior Member

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    well stated emG and to the point
    Cheers
    Pete
     
  18. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Well said Tam & EmG,

    Hope this isnt too long, I found this permie project absolutely awe inspiring yet it too has 'failed'.


    I am not sure if it has 'failed' if the women are continuing on.

    Oh the foibles of man!!

    Cheers
     
  19. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    EmG. Your thoughts are all valid, but I think the base assumption that these systems don't work has more to do with the larger paradimg of agriculture, the relation the average consumer has to his/her food, and the subsidized costs of those "conventional" models of food production.

    It takes time for complex systems to get to the point where they function without "life support", something like off farm income, non-agriculture income on site (teaching, workshops), sustained access to cash, etc, and the pressure to "make money" from land, the trend towards income from the site, leads to simplified systems that do not adress all of the on site needs a more diversified farm could address... In simple terms, production frequently comes at a cost to diversity, and diversity frequently comes at a cost to production.

    So, perhaps Permaculture is a generalist approach, and in an era of specialization, perhaps generalized knowledge is not valued as highly as the specialist mode of agriculture, which flows from the kilograms per hectar model, which "externalizes" true costs (erosion, pollution, genetic erosion, introduction of endocrine disruptors, mutagens and carcinogens) onto the world, and claims that the farming of a limited number of plants, dependent on a massive subsidized energy input, as something that works.

    And we move forward, producing denatured food, from less varieties of less species, chosen for qualities like size, packability, "keeping" before ripening, and other considerations, things that have a larger value than "the bottom line", like taste, nutrition, sustainability in agricultral practices, reduced environmental foot print, decentralized and local food production, are not factors that weigh in in many accounting practices.

    A food system that provides the owner with a maxiumum number of calories, with a minimized quantity of calories in its production, with no adverse effects to the larger environment, on a farm that provides ecological services to the larger community around it, on the local, regional, national and global levels, as a carbon sink, pocket of biodiversity, as habitat for birds and other animals, as water retaining acreage, soil holding land areas, food production, etc, etc, etc, all combine to give that land more value than simply the dollar value per kilogram coming off of that land.

    Unfortunately, there are no mechanisms that recognize and reward those land owners for their practices, other than price premiums paid on certain commodities coming off of that land, organic certified products, Fairtrade certified commodities, bird friendly coffee and cacao, etc, etc, which, again, plays neatly into the whole kilograms per hectare X dollar value per hectar simplified model that is the root cause of many of the problems of agriculture today....

    Cattle, timber, flowers and veggies all have specific markets under organic certification, and market mechanisms to obtain substantial price premiums built around that certification.... however, that is still just the kilos per hectar model. Combined so that energy flows between cattle, timber, flowers and veggies and nutrient cycles are a part of the whole, then all of these are parts of permaculture.

    We need a way to recognize and reward good practices, to give farmers a reward on their land use patterns, their carbon sequestering, soil retention, genetic banks etc.

    Conversely, we need to make people using offending practices, the use of synthetic fertilizers to make marginal land productive, resulting in damage to down stream aquatic communities, the use of herbicides to make innappropriate cropping regimes "cost effective", resulting in the introduction of persistent toxins, endocrine disruptors, carcinogens and mutagens, the "unintended" release of GMO pollen into neighbors land etc, all pay their hidden costs.

    That means taxes on these chemicals, expensive lisences for their use, biotech companies to buy huge insurance policies to protect farmerw hose crops are contaminated, and this would help defray the cost of cleaning up the results of their use, including the blossoming of cancers in agridultural regions, the cost of unjustifiable, immoral and illegal "preemptive" wars to "fight terrorism" while being naked grabs for oil (and the kilos per hectar model is drowning in oil), and the loss of entire crops and seed lines to "accidental" contamination of non target crops by GM pollen.

    The value of a farm steeped in permacultural principles is significantly higher than just the value of its food in terms of kilos X price per kilo. Unfortunately, it is hard to make a well diversified farm make any money, and simple farms that produce food soaking in oil also don't make much money, either, even before true cost is considered, and the economics are ALWAYS against those models if we consider the true cost of their practices...

    I have lived and worked on what was, at one time, a cattle and citrus farm, for over 17 years. Right now we have well over 300 species of plants we grow or encourage, and we also have many varieties of many of those species. As a result, we have a highly diversified and resilient farm.

    The farm is not "making any money". But it is not losing money, either. We eat really well, and we buy very little of the food we eat. We have many trees, and we have gardens, chooks, and ducks, and it all works. We both work (Dawn is working for Uof Floridas Ethnobotany program collecting specimens with Kekchi and Mopan Maya names, and I do consulting work and install renewable energy systems, and our project works with local communities and does training).Yes, it has taken a long time to get here, but, the farm is now a system that requires some maintenance, not much establishment work, and provides for us very well.

    What is the value of this farm, in terms of the food coming off of it? Probably not that valueable, in the kilos per hectar model, but in terms of the calorie based accounting, the amount of work we do to get the food we eat, we are way ahead... in terms of ecological services, the farm is providing a lot of services to the larger world, and those services have value... in terms of avoided environmental cost of the calories comingg off of our land, this land is extremely cost effective.

    This is why permaculture is so important. It is not that these farms are not productive, they are, it is that as a global society, we have systematically undervalued food, we have selectively embraced "cheaper" and "more productive models" of food production that come with high costs, and those costs are hidden, and are not written on the price tag. We pay those costs though higher taxes, destroyed environment, exposure to toxins, diets poor in nutrients.

    So, perhaps permaculture is cost effective :lol: after all. It is the framework, the "philosophical foundation", the paradigm that needs shifting.

    Respectfully,

    C


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  20. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Oh Christopher, you said it. 8)
     

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