convenience permaculture - or - yet another mistake

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by makehumusnotwar, Jan 16, 2006.

  1. makehumusnotwar

    makehumusnotwar Junior Member

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    is there anybody else out there who fell in love with the simple concepts of permaculture, methods copying/using natural systems - but now that seems like a distant fond memory as you lay on the bench at the chiropractor's?

    my great raised bed zone 1 system only required several ( plus many more several) back and car-breaking trailer-load trips of spent mushroom compost, crusher dust, salvaged pavers, hay...... in fact - NOTHING on site already! and now it's mostly covered by a poly-pipe shadecloth, because it really gets far too hot where i decided to put it. weeds are a constant problem (thanks couch) because planting isn't dense enough. literally days and days wading through 6ft grass and mixed weeds with a brushcutter, only to watch everything grow back almost straight away. i think i really missed the whole point.

    i understand things - whilst based on simplicity - do actually involve detail and yes you do have to do some hard physical work at some point. but even though we respect and use permaculture, is our precious ego creeping back a little and needing to "control" nature again? (even if it is organic and relatively sustainable). the putting of things where WE want them and HOW we want them. needing it done quicker than nature would've usually taken. double handling everything. purchasing and shipping in things from elsewhere.

    "convenience permaculture." with just a dash of irony.

    i figure i'm spending a little too much time DOING and not enough time on the ol' OBSERVING and thinking. there obviously is an easier and better way - it may not always be as quick or tidy or controlled - but then i love bill's quote on the video ".....tidiness is just maintained disorder."
     
  2. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Humus,

    Sounds like alot of work. However 6ft grass is pretty impressive (thats alot of hay!), I'd sit and watch that for a while. Desire for 'Control' can be a manifestation of frustration (i hope not too presumptuous, you sound frustrated).....management is different to the planning and making stages of a project.......it seems to involve lots of contemplation :? :cya: :partyman: :rr: :banghead: :color: :happy10: :toothy2: ..and stuff. (sigh, the single emoticon with a plant in it has gone...)


    ....perhaps sit back and evaluate what you do have on site now, cause it sounds like you have accomplished alot already.

    Maybe start some particular threads for advice (help with couch grass anyone?)

    I have read some wonderful ideas in this forum and people are generally happy to help. So the last of my 2cents.......

    Start congradulating yourself on all that you have done so far.....
    Get a goat to eat all that hay (ok just a possibility, rabbits? gineas? sheep?)......
    The gardens of Babylon weren't built in a day...... gather some mates and host a gardening do-up BBQ 8) .....for the big stuff.....
    Systems tend to be as convienient as they are made to be, focus what you have into a smaller area and cover crop the rest. Replan. You property sounds very different to the site that had 'nothing on it' to begin with, fecund almost.
    Consider buying some foods from other farmers/markets/permies, so you don't have to grow absolutely everything yourself and can help support those who follow the same ideas.

    Permaculture has a simple elegance, however I have never felt that it is simple as in 'a breeze' but rather simple as in 'profound.'

    ummmm
    my mum always said that there was no such thing as a mistake, except not learning from it for next time.

    Hope you feel better
    Ichsani
     
  3. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

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    Sometimes I think the need to be busy is just as destructive as the need to control. How many times a day do you meet someone who says 'busy day today?' or something like it?

    And, of course, laziness is soooooo underrated.

    :?: BTW, just how high will grass really grow if you don't cut it.

    Mike
     
  4. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    g'day makehumusnotwar,

    mmm dunno mate, but i love the simplicity of it, even from the 'burbs where i started and i migrated that parctise out to rural, ok initially there is the work of creating the raised beds but i do it at my pace then there is all the tree planting 500 mostly forest trees but about 100 food trees.

    and all the work of keeping them alive thorugh the driest period and all the works of mulching around the food trees and along between the rows, the ripping along the contours, the slashing and raking creating our own mulch.

    but now it is easy and has been for the past 2 years though the system still need more addition to it, but basically now it is a laid back system. we do very little through the year, all we do is plant seedlings and harvest produce from those plantings, and little maintanance work along the way eg.,. fruit fly & bug management.

    yes once a year at the beginning of the season there is slashing and raking to do to top up the mulched tree rows, the gardens need re-mulching 3 or 4 times through the year, can't have it total bludge hey? :lol: but compared to gardeners in most suburban blocks i don't reckon i work as hard as them and get far better results. now we have food trees that produce on rainfall alone, and pumpkins that grow as volunteers and they produce very good fruit on rainfall alone, the more volunteers we get the better we reckon we are, that measn the strongest plants grow and we just eat the produce.

    i have my back problems to guess we realy don't get to do this sort of thing until we are well past our teenage years hey, but for me this works and i will always use these simple principals. everytone who visits who doesn't understand the laid back principals of permaculture always suggest how hard we must work to keep it this :!: i give them the good news.

    yep can honestly say fell in love with the simple concepts and still in love with them they'll do me. so the first 2 years was hard to a fair bit of work (had to build a home as well), to the last 2 years being very easy basically. :D 8)

    len :lol: :lol:
     
  5. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I don't mean to sound pompous, but maybe you didn't start at the bottom: the soil. I try to rush ahead and get things done, and then the minute I turn my back, the weeds come back. Sound familiar?

    This is a series of excerpts from Jackie French's book, Organic Control of Common Weeds: https://www.jackiefrench.com/organweeds.html

    Have you read Pat Coleby's book Natural Farming and Land Care?

    Both these books say that weeds usually take over areas that can't grow much else. Both say that if you are overrun with weeds, you need to pay attention to what the soil is telling you.

    Have you had any soil analysis done? It might be cheaper in the long run to take care of what the soil needs, rather than what you think is a good idea.

    When you removed the couch grass, did you remove it from the area, or did you lay it down where you found it to shade out the growth of any runners that you may have missed? Are you leaving bare earth, which is an engraved invitation for any and all weeds to come back, or did you replant IMMEDIATELY?

    Permaculture sounds deceptively easy..... DECEPTIVELY easy. And then we get annoyed when we find that we simply weren't paying attention.

    Sue
     
  6. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

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    After my last post I went away and found an analogy to my point. Larry Wall - the creator of a computer language called Perl said that laziness, hubris, and impatience were the three qualities a computer programmer should cultivate. His book defined them as:

    Laziness
    The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you design labor-saving gardens that other people will find useful, and document what you did so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a permie. Also hence, this book. See also impatience and hubris. (p.609)

    Impatience
    The anger you feel when nature is being slow. This makes you design gardens that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a permie. See also laziness and hubris. (p.608)

    Hubris
    Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you design gardens that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a permie. See also laziness and impatience. (p.607)

    You can see that I have actually paraphrased Larry here, after all he was a computer geek, not a permie.

    Mike
     
  7. spritegal

    spritegal Junior Member

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    if you have a read of Linda Woodrow's "The Permaculture Home Garden", it will make a huge difference.

    I know exactly what you are saying and it comes back to planning your food patch so that weeds and grass have little say in the matter, they are out competed.

    It has a lot to do with the amount of surface area available for grass invasion vs. volume planted out with food.

    If you haven't read it, I strongly recommend it, it will change your attitude to permaculture and gardening in general, it changed mine. Gardening is not meant to be a constant slog day in and day out, just to keep the weeds in check.
     
  8. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    convenience permaculture

    Hi Humus.
    Thanks for this thread ( and I love your sobriquet, btw).
    You're certainly hit a nerve for me and articulated some of the deep dark doubts I have on whether that this theory thing I am so captivated by, will actually work.
    I am about to launch on this permaculture journey and I am very nervous.
    The little bit of stuff I have experimented with so far has not proved as straightforward and simple as an enthusiastic novice is lead to believe from the texts.....
    Cue my first garden: sheet mulched with up to 10cms of well overlapped newspaper, with wood chip on top for mulch, but the kikuyu runners are up and through, taking over like Triffids HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE????? I thought that depth of sheet mulch would surely be inpenetrable, but it proved not.

    I was perturbed to read in Barely Run's thread that after three weeks away her plants had been lost to heat and dry. I had thought the permie system meant you could go away for years at a time and return to just implement “machete maintenance”.

    I come here daily for reassurance (and there are such great examples of the theory working brilliantly) and to further my education, but Humus, you've unearthed my deep apprehension that everything is not as “simple” as it seems.

    I know this sounds negative and a downer, but I have no personal experience of anything ever actually working – my childhood memories are of failures. Everything planted by adults died for one reason or another – was washed out by torrential unseasonal rain, shredded by hail, killed off by unseasonal frosts, burnt to a cinder by baking hot days...and it wasn't just us... . all around me I watched a rural neighbourhood transform into suburbia because no-one could make a living from their dirt.

    Maybe I need to go and visit some of the successful permaculture sites around the place and get some reassurance this way....
     
  9. HoneydaleFarm

    HoneydaleFarm Junior Member

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    I think you have to remember that part of that back breaking work is also healthy exercise, good food so no internal problems trying to detox yourself of chemicals...and I work with so many public servants that get back/neck/RSI problems from sitting in an office job all day.

    I think the key is a little everyday...and the initial setup is hard (going through it myself for the third time), but the longterm benefits are huge!!
     
  10. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    Something I am finding here is the type of work and the projects that get done depend on the season, we are in upkeep season now, everything is growing faster than I can cut it, the bugs are eatting faster than I can squash them and where the hell is all my spare time gone.

    I am now putting off all projects until winter or when things slow up a bit, I want to build a chookie tractor, bird aviary, raised garden bed using an old water tank, build a shed, build horse stables, fence, build another dam, keyline rip and remineralize 6 acres, plant more trees in my orchard wind break, plant more native trees and grasses in my formal front garden, move 130m3 of mulch (heh) and many many more things, oh and plant those seedlings that are starting to go to seed in the shadehouse lol.

    Removing as much grass as possible by sheet mulching and replanting with ground cover is something which will give back time this time next year.

    Getting started is hard work, getting to big is a problem which i'm battling myself.

    Keep ya chin up, everything takes time to do.
     
  11. ecodharmamark

    ecodharmamark Junior Member

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    G'day makehumusnotwar,

    Great topic for discussion:

    For me, applying the principles of permaculture comes down to what I can do within my scope and frame of reference. At the moment it too bloody hot and dry here to do much more than try to keep a few annual vegetable alives, along the four fruit trees we inherited when we landed on this property a couple of months back. All else is in varying stages of death - however the natives are thriving! We are very much in Holmgren's Principle 1 mode: Observe and Interact.

    I don't think we can ever rush the process of applying the principles, and I think we can sometimes tend to berate ourselves for not getting out there and 'doing' something, when in fact we are 'doing' probably one of the most important aspects of permaculture: Observing, Planning and Designing. As Mollison says, "One hundred hours of thinking; one hour of work".

    Take a good look around your patch and record all the information as it is presenting itself to you. This way as the coming seasons approach you can look back on your notes and prepare yourself for the 'big' events, like the 6' high grass, etc. Go back to the basics and look over all that you have learnt. Remember that you have come an extremely long way, and try to remain focused on the bigger picture.

    I think you have received some wonderful hints and tips on this thread, and I just wanted to add my little bit of encouragement into the mix. Keep up the great work, and don't forget to take time out to simply observe and enjoy it all.

    Cheerio,

    Mark.
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Those early Permaculture books that emphasize thought over action were I think written by a different generational mindset that didn't quite appreciate just how lazy and coddled we children of the priveleged west have become.
    It isn't about how little work you can get away with and still have productive gardens. Its about how much productivity you can get out of your work.
    If anyone tells you you can grow enough food to survive on or even just poke a stick at without a lifestyle that is informed and imbued with the everpresent and never ending aspect of hard work, they are absolute jokers.
    Work isn't something to be afraid of. It is what makes us who we are.
     
  13. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I've just spent a good half-hour looking up Kikuyu (Pennisetum clandestinum). WOW! This stuff must be the original Plant from Hell! But at least half the sites I found were advising on HOW TO START AND GROW IT FOR PASTURE! Yikes!

    You can't dry it out because of its deep root system. The roots extend to 5.5 m, but only sparsely below 60 cm, with 90 percent of the total root weight found in the 0-60 cm layer.

    You can't fertilize it out of existence because it likes nitrogen (even superphosphates).

    You can't plant cover crops amongst it, because it releases allelopathic substances which kill almost all other species in the vicinity.

    One site said "It does require soils with good drainage", but it still tolerates flooding.

    You can't burn it because of the deep root system. You can't graze it out of existence for the same reason, and I'm sure mowing would be the same.

    There are a couple of whimpy diseases that don't bother it much, and a fungus that only bothers it a bit somewhere in NZ.

    The only condition that I could find that it remotely doesn't like is shade.
    And that could be tricky to provide in large amounts...

    The only thing that I could find that MIGHT work is an organic weedkiller that is for sale in Oz, etc.:

    Organic Interceptor:
    https://www.organicinterceptor.com.au/we ... nials.html

    Sue
     
  14. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    convenience permaculture

    Thanks Sue, for the sympathy!.
    And when I am not dealing with kikuyu I also have paspalum and couch growing alongside and among the kikuyu. That is why I used to spend my “recreation” time on a ride-on mover, trying to control it all, and, in desperation thought “there's got to be a better way?” and hit upon permaculture.
    Kikuyu was introduced to Australia about 1890-odd, with a lot of the research work done at the Hawkesbury Agricultural College, which at the time was very proud of being able to recommend this wonderful grass to farmers.
    Will look further into the website you have found.
    I mean, once-upon-a-time I used to just glyphosate it, but in deference to Chris, and what I have learnt here, I no longer find that a palatable solution. And anyway, the Roundup only stun-gunned it, really, it wasn't ever really dead. But with the root system you describe, of course it bounced back!
     
  15. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    I have to laugh at kikuya the plant from hell :lol: :lol: :lol:

    where we lived down south it covered everything for miles - although the soil was certainly not well drained and flooded in winter

    we even had it growing up through the walls in our old house - as we used to say then we were scared to go on holidays in case it covered the house while we were gone :lol: :lol: and it killed 2 lawn mowers :twisted:

    we grew our veggies in old rainwater tanks still with the metal bottoms in them and filled with "imported" sand placed on top of concrete ( sand was a treasure in that deep clay country )

    now up here we struggle to grow a bit of kikuya to cover the endless expanse of black sand so it wont blow away and to provide a bit of pick for the goats ........ we have tried and failed with everything else .......... couch, rhodes grass and various ground covers

    and here you can kill it by not watering it :lol: :lol: even kikuya is no match for our WA dry gutless sand

    frosty
     
  16. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    Yes I lost a lot over the 3 weeks we were away with exceptional high temps and no rain BUT...the veges beds had only been planted 3mths prior... Chook tractored and mulched once.. so I am sure next summer they will withstand the heat much better. The interesting part is what did survive...the basil...the organic tomatoes planted as seedlings from an organic grower....the potatoes in the tyre stacks did much better than the ones in the ground....the pumkins in the sandy patch did very poorly but the ones in better soil about 50% survived. I am sure if I ever get to live somewhere for 2 consecutive planting seasons I'll do better...lol
    The kikyua grass is a problem here also but at least mulching makes it easier to pull up and the chooks love it. Sheet mulching slows it down tried the Pine Oil as an organic herbicide but not more effective than the sheet mulching but useful for small areas....I am so envious of anyone with raised beds....they would be garden heaven I'm sure.
    Cathy
     
  17. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    convenience permaculture

    Reading your post I think I see the difference between us, Cathy. You seem to be very much a glas is half full person, whereas I am a “it's almost empty and draining fast”, sort of person.
    I doubt I would be so philosophical if I had put in the effort you have done ..... maybe that is something I have to learn.

    I am having a little bit of small successes though. For the life of me I could not understand what everyone was saying about how to plant sweet potato. Stuff about slips and which end was up, I was looking for an instruction manual on the tubers I got frustrated and went “bugger it, I'll just shove em in the ground” and now I have leaves protruding and looking healthy. I wanted it most for ground cover anyway, so I'm happy with this result.
    Good luck in Townsville, when you get there!
     
  18. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    heuristics. I think you and many of the rest of us REALLY need to post your signature lines all around our houses, where we will see them so many time that FINALLY the info sinks in deep enough to do some good.

    Sue
     
  19. barely run

    barely run Junior Member

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    :-x Tried all the sweet potatoe options except bunging it in the ground...none suceeded so maybe the next small one i get will go in the ground...wonder if it's too late now to plant???
    Cheers
    Cathy
     
  20. heuristics

    heuristics Junior Member

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    convenicence

    Hey Cathy – say “bugger it” and shove it in anyway! – what's the worst that can happen? (it'll die !) but – and remember you're the optimist out of the two of us - it'll probably live.
    Ddont know about Canowindra, but we're getting plenty of rain and plenty of heat, so everything else has gone mad!

    (Sue-in-Wa) my sign-off is to salve my conscience: "I'm not working because I am actively observing!" (yeah, right!)
     

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