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Discussion in 'Introduce Yourself Here' started by Kent, May 8, 2017.

  1. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    Hi I'm new here at the forum, and very insecure with the technology. I'm sure it will be less so quickly. I live in Zone 6A of the Midwest USA (Illinois). I have a food forest that was installed originally in May of 2015. It is doing very poorly. Nearly all of my 60+ fruit and nut trees have been replaced at least once. I just replanted another 25 this past week. Very discouraged and looking for some help.
     
  2. 9anda1f

    9anda1f Administrator Staff Member

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    Hi Kent and welcome,
    Tell us what you're seeing in your food forest. How are the trees dying? Tell us about your soil's condition and depth.
    Are there indications of gophers or voles?
     
  3. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Yes Welcome
    If your getting large losses something or a combination is the problem
    As much relevant info as possible will help
    Factors could be
    Ph of soil
    Water logging
    Not enough water
    Residual chemical in soil
    Chemical drift from outside
    Wind
    Time of planting eg Citrus will just drop dead if planted into cold soil
    How they were planted
    Attack by borers or underground pests
    Were the trees root bound , often if the soil is a bit hostile the plant will hide in its potting medium until it chokes

    Before you spend any more money find out what grows well in your area (grows like weeds)
    Have a look at your neighbours trees
    Some success will breed confidence

    Look for clues
    Do they die from the top down
    Or one side burns off first
    Do the go yellow and sickly for awhile

    Tell us about the land history over the last few yrs
     
  4. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    Thanks for the replies - I'll try to fill in some details. It's a three year story at this point. The problem in a nutshell:I am having large losses of fruit and nut trees in my 2015 food forest swale berm. I’d like to know if there is a “type one” error I am overlooking that may be killing my trees?

    Some details: I feel like the great losses may be associated with the unusually wet 2 years (especially summers) we have had in this area, but would very much like an expert opinion. The main part of my food forest is a 440’ long main swale with a small pond at one end of the swale. Here is a link to google map location of it: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0330359,-90.2752218,123m/data=!3m1!1e3

    This swale seems to be doing exactly what a swale should – collecting water. It has not actually dried out (most of the time there is water standing in it) since it was installed. The soil here (This is Illinois, about 50 miles North of St. Louis , MO) is mostly clay, and in this old “wash area” there is very little top soil (maybe 3” or so). We are in zone 6A and my soil PH checks 6.5 in the area. I haven't seen sines of voles or other burrowing varments here, but have them elswhere on my property. We planted 62 fruit and nut trees in this swale berm with a Siberian Pea Shrub on each side (about 18” away) of each and a common Mulberry half way between each of the fruit trees. Now the bad news - the trees (dry root - purchased from Stark Bros.) early spring 2015 went in the ground in May (along with a good seed mix ground cover and old grass hay mulch on the fresh earthworks). We had a VERY wet spring and summer. The ground cover grew like crazy! Cow peas vined to the tops of established trees in the area. The Swale had standing water the entire summer! By fall about 30 trees (not to mention about 50 plants and bushes) were dead – dead – dead! Stark Bros did stand by their replacement warrantee and I replanted everything in the spring 2016. Most of those trees looked better soon after planting than the survivors from 2015, but, we had ANOTHER wet summer in 2016. Again the swale has had water in it all year (I finally added an adjustable depth drain last fall). The water finally, in mid-February not visibly standing in the swale. As for HOW the trees die - it seems they just don't get any growth. They never seem to "perk up" after planting. Even the survivors seem to be just barely so. A few of the trees I planted this spring were palled apple and pear from the local Walmart. They seem to be doing alright, and getting / holding their leaves at least. I did a scratch test to check life in the cambium layers , and I had 34 dead trees again! (The West “half” of the swale is nearly all dead.) When I found this I decided I needed some expert outside help! I have asked for local help from several different County extension services in the area. One suggested the trees may be drowning, one suggested they may be drying out, and the other said it sounded like I knew more than they did about trees! None of them knows anything about a food forest, swale, or berm.

    A side note; most of the support trees are still surviving. Most of the losses with them are due to having accidentally cutting them off when trying to cut the ground cover back (during the wet summers, when the ground cover should have dried up) to let in a little light to the trees. NONE of the surviving fruit or nut trees looks “good”. They have not even sprouted new limbs. For the most part they are just sticks poking out of the ground. I also should note that I have added compost (with inoculated char) around the trees (on top of the ground) three times over the life of this forest. I have also fertilized (“Mittleider” style commercial, just one application), and added soil amendments (SEA-90 fertilizer, and SC27 Plus-Organic around each tree. I don’t think I over did any of that, but? I also thought that maybe the compost addition was piling up too much, so last fall I pulled it all away from the trunks making sure the graft point was above ground level.

    Any suggestions on what I may have done wrong, what to do to correct, or where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.

    Another side note, also back in the Spring of 2015 I planted 100 little root stock apple trees in a tiny 10’ X 10’ footprint. (I’m learning some grafting skills with this little patch.) I have only lost about three of these, and most of them are very healthy looking, nearly 6’ tall now.

    Sorry this is a bit disjointed. Some of it is cut and pasted from emails sent to extension agents asking for help.
     
  5. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Are the trees planted on the mound or down slope
    Clay soil might be a factor (waterlogging) when we dig a hole in clay we make a little dam
    Sounds ideal as far as watering your trees
    Perhaps try a couple on mounds upslope from water but close enough that roots can access moisture
    Usual fix for heavy clay is mounding /raised beds
    Masses of organic matter fixes mostly everything applying it to your site may be a challenge
    Dig up one of the sick ones and check for new roots
    Perhaps a couple of rip lines from upslope so water can drain down into swale
    Incorporate some gypsum and organic matter into rips so they don't seal over again
    Research how and where your nut trees grow naturally and try to mimic those conditions
    Gypsum around any live trees may help certainly wont hurt (creates a reaction in soil particals to help drainage)
     
  6. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    hello Kent and welcome,

    i wish it were easier for me to get around, but you are about a 9 hour
    drive from here to there. it is so much better to see what is going on.
    the satelite picture doesn't show me anything i can discern as a
    swale. i just see a pond with what looks like a ditch leading to it...

    i would agree with you that the past few years have been very wet
    down that ways as i watch the radar and see the storms go through.
    just a few years before that there was a pretty harsh drought (you
    would have been hauling water to keep the trees alive).

    the thing with planting when just starting out. i sure would not plant
    so many and would do the first step, which is observe the current
    layout. each species may need differing conditions. to me that
    means a lot of reading.

    it simply sounds like you've put them too low and they've drowned.
    bad luck... not entirely.

    also, fiddling about too much, any that have a chance of growing
    are being subjected to changing conditions above and beyond
    getting too much water. poor things and the soil community are
    likely very confused.

    when planting a tree you need to take into considerations how
    large that tree will get and the root system for such a large being
    will be needed above the ground water. they can be flooded
    once in a while, but should not be continually.

    that requirement pretty much determines how the land would be
    swaled and how much water would be held back.

    ok, to recover, sounds like you need to either redo your swale to
    actually let all water through with very little held back or even
    redo from start calculating ground water levels and distances
    between contours. i'd say most trees will need six to eight feet
    of space above ground water for most of the season with only
    a few times of flooding where that gets within a few feet of the
    surface. in primarily clay this takes time to drain. the top of
    the area would likely need to be 15-40ft (depending upon size
    of tree).

    since you cannot control how much rain you get very easily
    i think you have to set this up as primarily good drainage and
    then count on surface mulch and the holding capacity of clay
    to give you what you need for moisture. if once you've gotten
    going you can manage the swale's water holding capacity to
    keep some more water back without drowning the trees then
    you'll be ok, but at least then you won't be drowning them.

    planting trees in the earliest spring or in the previous fall is
    the method i'd use, mulch the area around the tree using a few
    layers of cardboard and wood chip mulch (two to three feet
    radius). this should keep the ground cover away from the
    tree for a few years and give it a chance to grow without much
    competition. make sure the wood chips and cardboard are not
    in contact with the tree. a few inch gap is all you need, but that
    is also where some weeds can come through. remove those
    by hand carefully to not damage the bark of the tree. if you
    need a protective cover to keep animals from feeding on the
    trees you put that in too (wire mesh fence around).

    around here, all fruit trees are deer and/or rabbit and/or vole
    food. it takes patience to get an orchard growing and good
    protection to get a crop from a small tree or bush. which is
    probably why i have not done anything other than grow some
    apple seeds to see how fast they'd grow (pretty fast, 4-8ft in
    one year -- seeds were planted in the fall). i've chopped them
    back last year and need to remove them now because they
    were never meant to stay where i planted them.

    it takes two or three years to see the tree get established and
    four or more years for many to flower or fruit. again depends upon
    the tree...

    sorry things have gone so poorly, but i hope it can be remedied and
    you start to see better growth this season. :)
     
  7. Kent

    Kent New Member

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  8. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    Thank you both for your input! I will try to address your questions and ask some of my own.I haven't figured out how to add pictures yet to help with my descriptions. I'll get it, just not enough hours in the day to do all the things that need done! - - The trees are planted in the the berm or mound on the downhill side of the swale. I'm not sure I understand the "little dam" in the clay soil Terra mentions. This spring when I planted we made a small "bowel" around the dug hole to hold water IF we should need to carry water for irrigation in the event of a dry summer. Is that what you mean? The "mounding" you mention, I'm envisioning that being to not plant the trees as deeply and then mound the soil up around it so the roots are not as deep in the swale berm or mound and has a small individual mound of it's own. Is that the idea? I can come up with significant amounts of grass clippings, old straw and hay over this summer, and lots of oak leaves this fall. I raise a few rabbits, and chickens and compost the waste and bedding (about one cubic yard nearly finished now). I also have about 10 -12 cubic yards of wood chips available, but most are hot from this spring). Given these resources, how would you suggest adding the organic matter? Should I compost the straw, grass clippings along with the manure before adding to the trees?
    I don''t understand the "rip lines" to help water get to the swale? There doesn't seem to be any problem getting water (in) to the swale.
    I think another thing I haven't mentioned; is that this whole food forest was designed and installed by Nick Ferguson, who has a PDC received from Geoff's online course a few years ago. I also took and completed the course spring of 2015 as my install was taking place. I'm sure not trying to drop names, just letting you know that the earthworks and the food forest was from it's inception intended to be a permaculture food forest. I sure don't feel very confident at this point, but seems to be the way of my life. By the time I finish something. I may have leaned enough to be where I should have started!
    I think I may have given Songbird the wrong impression with my comments about "replanting" my trees. I meant they were dead - so I dug up the dead ones, bought new, and replanted them. I am now thinking thou, that perhaps I SHOULD go out and "lift" some of those I just planted last week, and create their own little mound as Terra suggests?
    I have not cleared the area around the trees and mulched it as Songbird suggests. This I should have realized from the start should be done. I'll get to work on that - as soon as it stops raining again! I'll also try to figure out how to add some pictures so you may be able to visualize some things going on. I'm hanging Irish Spring soap from the trees at intervals. This seems to keep the deer at bay!
    Thanks again to both of you for your great thoughts and suggestions - I really do appreciate it!
     
  9. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    if you have your own website it is much easier to put them there and then
    link to them using the image tags. the icon in the upper right corner of the
    post when you write or edit it (Use BB Code Editor) will show you more
    details of a post when it has codes or links in it.

    i'm not sure what the size limit for posting images is here now with the
    new site.

    here is an example of using image tags:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    we have tried many things to deter deer and other animals over the
    years including soaps. all have failed except fences/barriers.

    if you don't have many deer around that may help, but we get so many
    rabbits and other animals that even if the deer weren't here we'd still
    need a fence. our current fence is not that good, but it does work
    enough.

    as for your planting of the trees and how that should go. i'm beginning
    to wonder if you have much general gardening experience? not that being
    new is a bad thing, but it helps us to know what level of experience.

    most trees should go into soil with a little compost in it, but not a large
    majority of the material should be organic (unless the tree planting
    instructions call for that sort of thing). you don't want it to break
    down and leave the tree without soil to cover the roots. instead mix
    some compost into the planting hole and if the soil is very heavy clay
    make sure there are channels and drainage for the roots to follow
    outwards, but you don't need to amend the entire area. the native soil
    is best amended from above like a forest via leaf litter or other organic
    materials breaking down on top (that is why chop and drop is a great
    method for a food forest). that is also why the cardboard and wood
    chip method is good, it keeps the competition in the immediate area
    down until a few years have passed and by then the small tree should
    be established and growing. the cardboard will be gone and the wood
    chips may be mostly gone too by the 3rd to 5th year (depending upon
    how dry it is and how deeply they are layered).

    remember that it is much easier to put a wire cage around a tree after
    the cardboard and woodchips are down... don't ask me know i know
    that...
     
  11. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    I have a lot of years of gardening experience. Most of them probably in doing it wrong! I have depleted several garden plots over the years. Including where my garden currently is. But several years ago I pulled back all the top soil and built huglkulture mounds and have since stopped tilling and started making compost and using it and mulch to build the soil and eliminate the need to till. From my investigation on planting trees it seemed the predominant theory was to NOT add much (in the way of nutrients) into the hole as this would discourage the roots from growing out to look for "goodies". The first two times the trees were planted in relatively soft recently disturbed earth from the building of the swale berms, so they were planted without digging much. Mostly just open a slit with a shovel and put the dry roots in and close it back up. This time I dug square holes, at least the depth of my shovel. I made sure the sides of the holes were rough (not shiny slippery clay), then placed the soil back into the holes mostly upside down. So the more improved soil along with vegetation was placed into the hole and the heavier clay put on top. As I said before though, I did plant them a bit low, and used some of the soil to make a "bowel" around each. The trees are not planted too deep in relation to the soil level immediately around them, but if compared to the soil level out beyond the newly dug holes they would be too deep. If that makes sense. Perhaps I should move them up a bit as I clear the area around each and add wood chips. I plan to start this effort this coming week.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
  12. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    um, i think the word you need there is "bowl" not "bowel"?

    if i read what you wrote correctly the trees are slightly below grade
    planting. in an arid climate that is good, in a moderate climate
    probably an issue to correct. lift a selection of trees, replant at
    grade or slightly above and then observe. the smaller trees are
    easiest to move.

    also, i would not upend the soil profile as you mention. in reading
    it sounded to me like you were smothering the tree by capping it
    with clay subsoil. instead, preserve the soil profile and make sure
    you have enough drainage for your wettest season.

    as for gardening/experience, we all learn by doing. :)

    the soil here is heavy clay with some sand, minimal organic content
    and few worms until i get it mulched and amended. takes me three
    to five seasons to get a decent number of worms back in there, but
    the soil improves each season (i add worms to only those gardens
    i'm planting the heaviest feeding crops, then i rotate plant for three or
    more seasons before i add worms again). i also make sure all garden
    scraps/debris is kept in the gardens where grown so i am not losing
    nutrients that nature is providing. if i have enough time i mulch with
    a green manure crop. partially decayed wood chips, wood ashes,
    pieces of bark or leaves and other yard/garden scraps can all be
    used too if i have them available. some friends bring me these things
    but i never know when they will bring them. anything extra i bury deep
    to use it as fill and then in the following seasons i may dig it up to use
    it or not. i try not to disturb more than 20% of a garden too deeply,
    but i would rather get some organic materials down deep to provide
    worm refuge spaces for the dryer and hotter/colder spells we go
    through. the general direction of most garden soils here improves so
    i'm ok with what results i see happening.

    my general issues are just that i only have so much time each day
    and we have a lot of gardens about 20,000sq ft so i try to pick which
    gardens to work on the most each season. many are just fine to be
    left alone for a few years at a time.
     
  13. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    Oh - thanks - spell check doesn't tell me when my miss-spelling actually creates a correct word! Just a small difference between the two and of course you are correct it is a bowl I was creating. A bowel would be difficult to create from clay I would think. According to my belief, One HAS done it though ;)!
    I'm wondering why I mow so much grass right now? Using up valuable time, energy and resources I could be using to move trees and wood mulch. Maybe I can start moving the trees up tomorrow as I'm mulching also.
    I'm pretty happy with my hugalkulture beds. I'm still learning to use them properly. (I know they are actually supposed to transition into a perennial garden space or food forest). The first year I just planted a row right down the middle of the top of the mound! It "worked" fine, but what a waste of space! We now get more production from less space (about a 3000 sq ft) than we did with our "traditional" garden (about 5000) (in the same place), and we don't have to plow, disk,till, and don't have to wait till it is dry enough to do all that either. We do have to learn to live with some "weeds", but most of those go to the rabbits for food. Just not quite as neat and tidy as I used to try for.
     
  14. missf

    missf Junior Member

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    Hi Kent

    just thought I would send u encouragement as I too am doing it on my own and having difficulties so if you want to chat about problems
    I would love to have someone to chat to too.
     
  15. missf

    missf Junior Member

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    ps I too have heavy clay and it has taken me 4 years preparing the soil with microorganisms and organic addons
     
  16. Kent

    Kent New Member

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    i appreciate the encouragement. I now at least have a plan of action - and a lot of work ahead of me to implement it. For me that's WAAAAAAAY better than just waiting to see if the trees die again!
     
  17. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Can you do some "creative engineering" on the ends of the swale / swales so you can drain the water out in periods of high rainfall and close up again as required
    Easy check to see if a high water table is causing waterlogging is to dig some holes and come back tomorrow if they are full of water that's likely your problem
    Plants don't die just because of too much water they die because they have no oxygen in that water
    The swales provide a convenient watering system if you can make it work
     
  18. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    i am not able to do full natural gardening here like i want, because the person
    who owns the place thinks that bare dirt is more attractive than weeds. i am
    more weed tolerant, for certain weeds, if there is nothing else growing there and
    the weed isn't one i consider a pest (thistles) i will leave it until i have some
    other plant to go in that location. which means my few gardens look untidy to
    her. i don't mind it at all.

    we don't have much space left to mow (thank goodness). i would much rather
    garden, prune, mulch, transplant, etc...

    i can get a lot of produce out of a very small space. mixing the garden spaces
    with some edibles and some cover crops spreads it out more. i keep a mix of
    cover crop seeds on hand for bare spots in the gardens outside the fenced
    area. as i was working on one of those gardens (digging out thistle roots) the
    other day i was happy to see plenty of big fat earthworms. they have done
    much better with those years of cover crops being turned under here or there
    in that space. i'm going to have a few hundred more square feet of space in
    that garden this year so the strawberries can spread back over it.

    which reminds me to say that they do make a good woodland cover crop and
    seem to tolerate clay if they wander off a mulched area. i'm not doing anything
    as formal as a straight line, but if you put down a few layers of cardboard and
    leave a few inch gap then poke strawberries along that line and mulch the
    entire area with a few inches of partially decayed strawberries you can get
    the strawberries to fill in the gap over the next season or two and then they
    can spread outwards over the rest of the wood chips as the cardboard decays.
    they will grow with some competition from weeds as long as they are not
    smothered completely. then as the trees get bigger and cast more shade the
    strawberries will be less productive in the shadier spots, but they tend to
    grow towards the light so they may spread outwards from a treed spot.
     

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