Cedar mulch for alkaline soil?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by drendrewolf, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. drendrewolf

    drendrewolf Junior Member

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    Okay, I know I haven't really gotten to know anyone yet, but I'm working on a problem that I need to figure out within the month (before our annuals planting window). I have some gardening students who have access to some really well aged (3+ years) juniper mulch. I'm not exactly sure WHAT kind of juniper, as this is coming from an operation that is being paid to keep the banks of a nearby river (Verde River) clear of high-fuel. They season the wood and sell it as firewood, then take the chips, slash, and rough to the landfill. My students, who just moved in from a different state, have two plots they want to do in a permaculture manner. One is one acre and the other is 10 acres. They live on the 1-acre and want to grow on 10-acre.

    Here's the deal, they've already put 8 inches down over the area they want to grow their home veggie patch on the 1-acre. They had their soil tested previous to this and the average Ph was 7.6. I just tested the plot that's had the juniper on it for the last month and it's 6.8. I do like the decline in Ph, but I'm not sure how well using juniper mulch will work with a veggie patch. They already put potatoes in the ground in one place. They pulled back the mulch and have not replaced it yet.

    Now, what I would prefer to do is run a full year test on it at my place, which is set up as a research gardening facility. I would use the juniper mulch to grow plants on an area that mimics their soil (which I do have in the back). I would grow examples of everything they want to grow, and use partially composted straw mulch as a control, since that's what most people around here use. I would probably set up pine-needle mulch, and partially composted elm leaf mulch comparisons as well, since those are also frequently used here. BUT, we don't have time for that before they need to put their veggie patch in. (I will run the experiment anyway)

    Now, I have never used juniper mulch myself. But, my mother (old hippy permaculture-esque gardener) has, and she says she never had a problem with it. I would like input on this from those with more knowledge/experience than myself (and who are not my mother). Our county extension office is useless, as they "strongly recommend" never using wood of any type (chips, shred, logs) on any garden of any kind.

    Technical Facts:
    Region: Yavapai County, Arizona, USA
    Elevation: 4,408 ft (1,344 m)
    Zone: 7b
    Soil type: Clay soil (high silt ratio, with no real man-made compaction involved)


     
  2. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Hi, Drendrewolf. I am in California and the love of redwood bark as a mulch here is widespread. Redwoods have a growth inhibitor in them, and you probably know that some cedar does as well. So that could play a role in what they've put there. Eventually, and it could be years under the right circumstances, that cedar will break down (as does even the redwood) and the roots of plants can access nutrients. But for now 8 inches of wood/carbon is too much of one thing. And it's absolutely crucial to know what kind of cedar it is, so they really need to ask about that.

    The real goal is soil that contains at least 1/3 and hopefully 1/2 organic matter. Just adjusting the pH is misleading. The really crucial thing in improving soil is that it needs to be a stew of ingredients, not just one thing. There needs to be broken-down manure, compost made from lots of ingredients, mowed weeds, leaves, grass clippings that hopefully don't have any spray on them. Once soil has high levels of organic material in it, the pH will normalize and soil fungi will be present.

    And the first question to ask for the Lay Gardener is what do worms eat? We are trying to bring as many worms into our garden as possible. They don't "eat" per se, like chew, but they suck scummy stuff through their systems. Wood isn't what they want. They want what's in that list above. And when worms are present in high numbers you know you have healthy soil that plants will thrive in.

    If it were me, depending on what type of cedar it is, I would take half of the cedar back up and make large compost piles with it, with the wood being 1/3, manure 1/3 and leaves/grass 1/3. I would wet and bury the rest of the cedar, then layer animal manures on the bare soil, then layers of leaves/mowed grass/mowed weeds and mound them up as thickly as the depth of a shovel blade, walk on it to really compact the mulch. (It doesn't compact the soil to do this) Permaculture uses layered mounds of organic matter, so if they are wanting to do Permaculture methods they would be shooting for this.

    It takes nitrogen to break down wood/carbon, and wood absorbs water that has the nitrogen in it, so less nitrogen will go into the soil below the wood for the plant roots for the first year or so. It's not a fast process, so that's why it takes time for that wood to break down and be accessible to plant roots, especially if the soil freezes and the processes slow. The teeny teeny root hairs on plants will need extra nitrogen and nutrients until that cedar is unrecognizable.

    I have a few juniper trees, and you'll probably notice that in nature not much grows below a juniper. So your mom must have been adding all the other things mentioned above because it takes a real mixture of ingredients to feed plants. Just because garden centers sell piles of wood chips doesn't mean it's the best thing for plants. Humans seem to not want to look at dead leaves and brown grass mulch, which actually makes a beautiful and consistent tan ground cover, and is way healthier for plants, and the lumber industry has all these leftover wood chips so they are all making a profit on it. I don't ever use wood chips, haven't for the last 30 years, and my soil is rich and full of worms from just gathering the regular compost ingredients. I do, however, have dead pine wood that I wait until the bark beetles chew into pithy stuff, and I add that to the soil. I sometimes bury it in a Hugelkultur method.

    But wood chips on the top of the soil will dry out, take forever to break down, and not provide the right kind of nutrition all by themselves. :)
     
  3. drendrewolf

    drendrewolf Junior Member

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    Thanks for the reply, Sweetpea! As for this stuff it's really old, and was left to the elements in in 1-tons heaps for a long time. It was also taken from the banks of an algae-rich river that most of the permaculture and polyculture practitioners around here pay homage to this time every year to gather scum from the banks to feed to new gardens. The use of this stuff is night and day, and you can tell who's using it (lots of growth) and who's not (plants are struggling). This mulch is so heavy in it that you can smell the algae less than 5 minutes after wetting it.

    Our soil has almost no organic matter in it whatsoever in it's natural state. None, zero, zip. We live on a massive brick that calls itself farm land. When I took over my family farm a few years ago everything was dying, including the 40yo orchard. I started piling tree trimmings around the trees in the worst state, keeping the piles about a foot away from the trunk. I sewed legumes of different kinds all throughout the orchard, from Blue Lake to Lucerne. Now the trees are really taking off, and currently in fuller bloom than I've ever seen them.

    I was thinking of doing something similar over at Marshal's place. First, pull the mulch back, then treat the soil beneath with blood meal and gypsum. The previous owners of the property sprayed the entire place with a heavy phosphorous fertilizer, so they are currently at the upper limit of what they can have for that for the next few years. They already have a map of where they will be planting things, so my thought was to plant clumps of legumes in a grid pattern, choosing the legumes according to what they will be accompanying. Also to keep the areas that have to be direct sowed around here (such as potatoes and corn) clear of that particular mulch until they've gotten at least 6" tall. They don't have access to anything else to use as mulch right now, so I'll bring them some properly composted grass/straw mulch tomorrow to keep those areas protected. All other plants will go in-ground as starters. When we replace the mulch it will have to go back down a bit thinner than they currently have it. While it's up I'll have them turn it every other day with fresh-cut arugula slash (which many of us around here have an excess of) and the composted elm leaves that one of our local organic nurseries lets me take away every fall. Because they're at the top of their phosphorous limit I'm hesitant to use compost with animal manure in it. I do have some leeched and composted horse manure though, and that's low in phosphorous.

    Anyway, what do you think of that plan? They also intend to feed the garden with Worm Juice, which our local worm guy has decided to supply them with this year while he helps them construct some farms of their own. As for regular old earth worms, we don't have a problem with those in our soil. For some reason the REALLY like our caleche clay. They have evidence of them in other parts of their property, so I have no doubt that they will migrate over to the veggie patch.

    Anyway, we have no intention of working the juniper mulch into the soil. It perform really well in the reaction tests in the lab, so they've decided to just keep putting on layer after layer of different stuff. In late June I"ll have about 10 cubic meters of spent arugula stems to give out. They want some of those too.

    Thanks again. I know this sounds all a mess, and it is. Any advice from practicing permaculturists and polyculturists is welcome. I'd rather get the feedback and be told I'm an idiot before I make a mistake in someone else's yard. KWIM?

    ~Candes
     
  4. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Hi Drendrewolf, That's great that you've revived your orchard! You plan is a good one, but it's too late for this year, as we are already in spring and planting is within just a few weeks. :)

    And, yeah, *eventually* wood chips help improve the soil. But they won't help you this year. Of course, it's what's underground that matters, and they won't be unrecognizable and underground for years if they aren't covered, buried or composted by lots of things, and one of those things has to have lots of nitrogen in it to break those down. They probably will help keep the clay damp, and avoid sun exposure, in that sense they will help. But 8 inches? It's still just too much of one thing.

    The algae is going to die back, because if your soil has algae in it it's too wet for plants.

    If the worms are there, and they get nothing but water full of cedar runoff, it doesn't mean they will stay. They have to have real food, a real mixture.

    I think it's amazing that the lumber industry has convinced so many gardeners that wood chips are one of the best soil amendments. They are making huge profits off of their leftovers. Most wood chip applications are for stopping weeds in the landscape, that's why the first application of them on top of the soil works in that sense because they dry out, they sit there and act as a barrier between the seeds and the sun and rain.

    But they are a far-down-the-road helper when it comes to vegetables that need very specific things. And wood chips are limited. Do you really want your food full of wood chip runoff? I don't want my tomatoes full of the liquid that comes off of redwood bark chips, yet nurseries sell the stuff like crazy. We want not only healthy soil that comes from many types of input, but we want high nutrition in our food as well. :)
     
  5. drendrewolf

    drendrewolf Junior Member

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    Thanks for your help Sweetpea. I think I'll convince them to set it aside this year. I just (a few minutes ago) secured a source of aged out grey cane they use instead. We don't plant here until May 1st, so there is time to hyper compost it a bit and load it with nutrients. The cane is popular around here because it doesn't interfere with anything except evaporation. That, and those of us who grow it as our clumpers and damwalls always have lots in the seasoning pile after we've picked the choice ones for building stuff. I didn't have any extra this year because I have plans for it. Here things like regular straw just blows away.

    Anyway, thanks for your help. You've given me lots of reasons to tell them to take it off. :clap:

    ~Candes
     
  6. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    I have several 3-sided bins for the compost to keep them out of the wind. They are not very wide, but they are quite tall, as tall as a person, and so is the pile in it. I add to the top and take from the bottom, so I don't have to turn it.

    It has helped me in my windy location to keep straw, leaves and grasses wet and covered with a few old boards until a cover crop of annual vetch or field peas or some vining mulch-maker grows up through it, covers over it to hold it down. Plant right into the mulch, through the annual cover.

    The first year in particular should be about growing annual crops that can be mowed and made into mulch. I don't like perennial grasses, like the cheap grass seed because it is a real stinker to get rid of, unless you have winter kill. Making meadows of seed mixes of nitrogen fixers, flowers and annual grasses, mustards, catnip (brings in tons of beneficial insects) and buckwheat, then mowing them, high at first so you'll get a second growth, gathering the mowed stuff into rows of layers of mulch.

    I think manure has so much more to offer, I wouldn't worry about extra phosphorus. The first few years are going to be starter years, and don't expect the perfect crop with the most output. The process is to build, build, build the soil. The plants on top are almost secondary and frosting on the cake compared to what's going on underground. :)

    It sounds like some big infrastructure trees and shrubs would help with wind. Have you guys looked into a food forest design with compatible plants? Robert Hart is on YouTube, and you can see how that works. The layers of trees work to interact with the plants, create windbreaks and create an environment that works with vegetables and fruit.

    https://youtu.be/IBQCKK4sLhg


     
  7. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Lots of great info there sweetpea.

    I've been doing some juniper composting, here on the farm we have quite a few sacred cedars (actually a juniper) that are dead from tornadoes and wind damage. I am breaking the left overs from fence post making by using fungi, coffee grounds and bovine manure mixed into the juniper chips, this is breaking them down to usable stuff in around a year which is pretty fast for wood chips. The added bonus is that when we use this composted woody material, it is inoculated with the fungi and they then get into the soil and that is always a good thing. Another way to break down juniper chips is to lay on layers of hardwood ashes when making a pile, then when you water, the natural lye leaches from the ashes and helps break down the juniper, once junipers have decomposed partially they are not growth inhibiting and can be incorporated into garden soils with out worry.
     
  8. drendrewolf

    drendrewolf Junior Member

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    Thanks for your reply Bryant. Yeah, we've decided to go ahead and start composting it. To say that this stuff is in "chips" would be wrong. It's all different caliber of wood. What my student has done is interrupted a local woodcutting operation from taking their "unsalable debris" to the landfill. Most of it is incredibly old (several years) and is already breaking down. Marshal, my student, takes it, one ton at a time, over to his property, sorts the biggest pieces out to season better and give away to the poor as kindling, then heaps the rest into 2-meter cubic piles. He's trying to figure out what to do with those piles. The current deep layer he put down over the area he and his wife want to use as their annuals veggie patch has helped soften the ground quite a bit. We're rounding up the materials we're going to use on that patch this year over the next few days, give a start on composting, then pull the old stuff back and put the new stuff down.

    There are plenty of places around town where the wood mulch can be used pretty much as is, but not on the food plants. We'll turn it into soil first. It actually turns out to be quite a thing, as he has access to literally dozens of tons of it. But, as it happens, I have access to literally dozens of tons of horse manure from all the micro ranches in our area. Those plus wood ash (also very easy to come by here) and a few other things and in a few years' time it will be great addendum!
     
  9. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Sweet! you have all the components readily available, that is going to end up awesome addendum. One other thought, some of the juniper could be turned into biochar and used that way. Biochar made from juniper can be a great way to enhance flow of nutrients in gardens. New research is showing that it also can be a heavy influence on sandy or clay soil, making it water holding in sand and water moving in clay, exactly what each of these types of soils need done to water. My own research has not show this effect much since my own soil is a rocky sandy loam formed from sandstone bed rock and hardwood forest humus. This link is to a published paper on the current state of research on biochar: https://www.nature.com/news/agriculture-state-of-the-art-soil-1.16699
     
  10. drendrewolf

    drendrewolf Junior Member

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    Yes! I've had great results from the few times I've made/used bio char. Before taking over the family farm a few years ago I lived in Phoenix and our subdivision was riddled with sink holes around the foundations of the houses. We secured our foundation by putting in planting beds back-filled with home made garden soil that included biochar. I put in the same soil, sans biochar, in beds securing our back wall. While the stuff on the back wall grew it was nothing like what we got out of the stuff by the house, even in the permashade. I've replicated the experiment a few times and gotten the same results all but one time... the Firethorn we charred once didn't work so well, lol. We live an and learn. But, you're right, some of this should be set aside to make biochar! So glad you pointed that out!
     
  11. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Drendrewolf; I'm just a newbie in Permaculture, but all my life an organic gardener. Some thirty some-odd years ago in Arkansas I had access to fresh sawn cedar (Juniper) shavings from a nearby sawmill (Large circular saw so the chips were not naturally compacting like some band-saw chips that are too fine). I already had built the soil up in my garden area with manure and vegetation over a six year period so I knew the ground was good. I slightly dug furrows in the ground, laid the fresh cut Irish potato pieces down after dredging them in flowers of sulpher (to prevent rot) and covered them with about ten inches of the cedar shavings. Composted chicken manure was then added to the top of the shavings. After the first rain I went outside to see birds eating grubs that had come to the outsides of the cedar piles.

    I also ran a row of the shavings alongside the rows of potatoes to add as the spuds grew up through the shavings. After the potato blooms appeared I reached through the shavings and harvested as many "new" potatoes as we needed and placed a marker at that point in the row. I continued from that point the next time I wanted "new" potatoes. This continued through the rows (4- fifty foot rows) until at last I came back to the first row again and began harvesting full size spuds.

    The potatoes under and within the shavings remained in good condition through the Fall and into Winter after the tops died back and only began to have a slightly sweet taste late in December. I had no problems with pests above or below ground and the shavings insulated the spuds from the heat and cold so there was no need for a storage place for them. The fresh shavings took a while breaking down into soil but I never noticed any growth inhibiting factor and always had a fine harvest of other crops grown there until we moved to South Carolina.........Just my two cents.

    Benjy136
     
  12. Bryant RedHawk

    Bryant RedHawk Junior Member

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    Benjy, thanks for describing your uses of shavings, I will start using some in that same manner since we will be adding to our potato plantings this year and next. This is why I love this forum, so much sharing of great information and tips.
     
  13. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Thank you, RedHawk. I brought up the Ark. map and see that you don.t live far from where I lived close to Hot Springs. Lots of rocks where I was. Actually just outside of H. Sp. by a small town called Bismark. I know, it always confused people who thought I lived in N.D. Anyway, we pulled enough rocks out of the ground the first year to make rock walls around the garden before we started adding everything from spoiled hay to Elephant poop from any circus that came to Hot Springs. I came up with a way to get a jump on the growing season by using a post-hole digger and planting my seeds or seedlings in compost at the bottom of the hole and capping the hole with a plastic milk jug that I gradually dismantled as the days and nights became warmer.(first the bottom, then the cap, and finally removed what was left of the jug altogether) The plant was healthy and on its way to producing by the time the remnant of the jug was removed. I've put in three of my maters here like that a while back. We just have to remember to add more compost as the plant slowly reaches for the surface.

    In Seabrook, Texas in a large greenhouse framed from "driftwood" washed up on shore from ships lost at sea and houses on the shore ravaged by hurricanes I grew bananas, peppers, mangos and a few interesting tomatoes. I planted "Arkansas travelers that were suspended from the ceiling and lowered in a spiral to the "floor" and continually covered with compost as they were lowered. They produced on the new vine large, beautiful and tasty tomatoes. I don't know why, or I don't remember why they had no side sprouts to work with. That was a loooong time ago and I may have clipped them off. I just don't remember all the details, but I had some very jealous neighbors. I had a chain-link fence around the back yard and I let one of them climb on the fence. I do remember that it ran 30 ft. on the fence but didn't bear as large tomatoes as the ones in the greenhouse and gave up the ghost in December, while the ones in the greenhouse just kept on kickin'.

    Just reminiscing.

    Love is the Answer.
    Benjy136
     
  14. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Benjy, the way you worded this, " I just don't remember all the details, but I had some very jealous neighbors. I had a chain-link fence around the back yard and I let one of them climb on the fence. I do remember that it ran 30 ft. on the fence..." I thought you meant you let your jealous neighbor climb on your chain-link fence to sneak a peek at how you did your tomatoes! Ha!

    I'm not quite understanding your tomato vine technique. Did you plant them in the ground of the greenhouse, sent the vine to the ceiling, the spiraled them down from the ceiling, all the while adding compost to the roots? Or when you say "continually covered with compost" how do you mean? :)
     
  15. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    The greenhouse was sitting on dirt with a few raised beds. The tomatoes were planted in a depression within one of the raised beds. They were supported on a string and as they grew upward they were lowered slowly after reaching about five feet. They spiraled downward naturally (over a period of time, of course) and were given compost to root in. As for the chain-link fence, it held one tomato vine. What made my neighbors envious was the size and flavor of the fruit.

    Thank you for your interest, Sweetpea.

    Love is the answer,

    Uncle Ben
     
  16. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Benjy, so not only were the roots in the soil, but the tip, after it had climbed up and then back down, was rooted as well! Interesting. There are some cherry tomatoes that grow in vines, like the Fox Cherry, that would be interesting to try. Thanks for the info!

    You know, that's how they grow those giant pumpkins, too. They root the vine all along its length. Never thought about it in terms of a tomato before! :)
     
  17. Benjy136

    Benjy136 Junior Member

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    Sweetpea. I seem to have this ability to take something that is easy for me to fathom and break it down into absolutely chaotic fragments. Let me make one more stab at this. I'll pretend that I'm listening to a description of the procedure.
    First, I can see the seed planted in a low spot in the raised bed. It will grow into an indeterminate tomato VINE.
    It begins to grow upward and instead of a stick stuck in the ground, the end of a roll of hemp twine comes down from the ceiling to support the vine.
    Looking at the ceiling, I see the twine going through a small pulley and twisted on a cleat before ending up on a spool held in place on a horizontal rod up there.
    Now the VINE has reached a height of about five feet (about a meter and two thirds)
    The twine is now untwisted from the cleat and lowered slightly and retwisted onto the cleat.
    The vine sags slightly and the bottom of it begins a slow spiral which will continue throughout the life of the vine.
    Over its lifetime, compost will be added to the base as it continues to spiral downward while the twine is periodically loosened and tightened.
    The tip continues to grow upward, as is its nature and fruit is continually produced on the new growth.
    The main advantage is that the sap has a very short distance to bring the nutrient to the fruit.
    The only trick is to ease the vine down at a rate that allows the vine to grow into the spiral without putting undue stress at the "Bend at the bottom" and let the "Bend" lie on the soil before the first shovel of compost. If the compost is added too soon the vine will REST on it and cause the area of compost to become quickly elevated. I can then picture a huge mound of compost with a short vine on its top. If I remember correctly, the spiral at the base had about a yard diameter and some vines overlapped down there.
     
  18. sweetpea

    sweetpea Junior Member

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    Benjy, Thanks! I see now. I have just never heard of this method, but I see how well it would work. Thanks for the details. I just couldn't picture it. It's a very clever way of creating new roots in such a great medium, especially for the vining tomatoes! I'll have to give it a try! :)
     

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