plants, shrubs, trees that are acidifiers?

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by songbird, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Good grief. I read a few pages, but since I am unfamiliar with the terms, my eyes started to cross. I'm still learning how to compost for crying out loud! So I will wait on NG to baby my way through.
     
  2. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    Sorry Rick! I know it's a scientific paper so it's heavy going. I had to do this stuff for 'Plant Structure and Function' a second year Biology unit. Bored me witless I have to confess. But it really is actually incredible the relationships between these plants and fungi and bacteria. :)
     
  3. Gonhar

    Gonhar Junior Member

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    I was always told that pine needles acidifed the soil, so I looked around and found this.

    Effects of Organic Mulches in Soil

    Organic mulches, derived from plant material, will decompose in time and enrich and improve the soil. This results in increased aeration of silt or clay loam soils and added water-holding capacity of sandy loam soils. Mulching improves and stabilizes soil structure (arrangement of soil particles) by reducing the impact of rain, weight (people walking on the soil) and cultivation of soils, especially when wet. In short, compaction of the soil is reduced.

    The pH (acidity or alkalinity) of soil can be changed depending on the mulch selected. For example, most composts will be slightly alkaline (pH greater than 7) and excellent for use in acidic soil regions, while continuous use of oak leaves, pine needles, pine bark and sphagnum peat moss will increase acidity. The breakdown products of leaves, including oak leaves, will be alkaline, but continuous use of oak, pine and sphagnum peat moss products will keep the soil surface acidic (pH less than 7).

    So having pines around could be a source of acidifying mulch for acid loving plants.

    https://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/1000/1083.html
     
  4. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    Yup, pine is one of the easier ways to acidify soil for the long term. I hope to use them(since some are native) with blueberries. For pines, this is an allelopathic process to exclude other plants, but since there are plenty of acid loving plants, we can use it to our advantage. I'm unsure of the time frame for this acidification using a pine tree. If you use pine mulch(either bark or pine needles, they both seem to work...pine bark is ~4.5 pH by itself), it may take some time for the chemicals to break down and move in to the soil. If you have an existing pine tree, then you may already be on your way.
     
  5. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    This is great, thanks S.O.P. Looks like I will be fine for a couple of years but should work on expanding the zone prior to that. I'm curious if compaction is included in the calculation as the more compaction you have the wider the roots will spread, the less you have the deeper they will go.
     
  6. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Different in what way?

    Yes, that's why I specifically mentioned Fabaceae and rhizobium bacteria when talking about leguminous plants as they are a plant family, not just the only ones to produce nitrogen.

    Please note, the word "all" was not used and the concept of "plants that aren't known to fix nitrogen" is a misnomer as it is the bacteria that fixes nitrogen. Therefore the answer to your question is as previously stated - "Other bacteria such as azotobacter and azospirillum brasilense are free ranging and can convert nitrogen when attached to a large variety of seeds, especially grasses." It is more efficient if the seeds are washed in the bacteria prior to planting so that as it sprouts the bacteria enters the developing root structure. This may refer to the first part of your question/s, the seeds become the plants we are talking about, just set up to provide a platform for the nitrogen fixing bacteria.
     
  7. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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  8. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    I only mentioned that because of your comment. I don't think a lateral, structural root would turn downwards at 90 degrees at a compaction point when there is a potential path (except root barrier examples). Here is a video explaining TPZ from one of the foremost arboricultural scientists in Australia - https://treenetmedia.com/?50. From memory, this video may explain some of the root structures and sheddings that some trees go through (not sure but give it a watch). Dr Greg Moore is worth watching throughout that website.

    You're right, they will go deeper. But do they go deeper at the expense of lateral or do they extrapolate across every direction in the environment they need or are offered? I think they will exploit any niche given to them and the niche of just on the surface, well oxygenated, humus'd and moist (with light rains) is too good a niche to ignore. I think the lateral roots will still exploit your compacted zone but I do think it's wise to consider what a tree needs to be structurally-sound.

    Compaction wouldn't be considered, nor is that calculator even considered perfect. It's a broad guideline and it's not even species specific (watch the video above for a hint on two different species).

    Best to just give the best possible environment for the tree, I'd think. As your trees grow large, the environment would encourage feeding and lateral roots into the travel paths.
     
  9. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    That is what I wanted to know. Interesting. Thanks. I won't ask for a link, but I can envision an Earth overloaded with cattle, should you be right... Now, I doubt it will work in subsoil (that which has no organic material, or carbon), is this right? And you do know about how trees moderate the climate, right?
     
  10. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    To be clear, it is the trees that are fixing nitrogen, as they are cultivating the bacteria. I refuse to believe the bacteria is sprouting tree seeds to their benefit. But hey, that is just my lowly opinion.

    I also want it to be clear your work on fixing bacteria for grasses that don't have this ability is going to continue the large landowners and the corporations who serve up cheap beef. But I guess in the minds of the many, the positive to this is the applauders will be able to get cheap hamburgers, until the carbon is gone from the soil...
     
  11. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Re the trees fixing nitrogen...never. They provide the exudates for the bacteria which keeps them close by but it is definitely the bacteria that produce the nitrogen... it would be like saying that McDonald's created the human race. No, McDonald's provide the food which keep some humans close by so as to feed McDonald's money.

    Re the use of nitrogen fixing bacteria on grasses - two things, firstly, if we have to eat beef then make it grass fed instead of grain fed to help reduce the negative impact for both animals and humans by CAFO's and secondly yes, humans are known to make stupid use of good resources and inventions but I disagree we keep that from them just because they are stupid.... there may even be some people just like us that can put that innovation to useful means.... NGcomm thinks about all the carbon sequestration that could occur by the growing of more grasses and the creation of humus...
     
  12. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Normally I don't respond to people who speak / type in 3rd Person unless they are named Simon. ;) Jokes aside, if N fixing trees don't exist, then do these trees know that?


    Growing grass is how this world got into the problems it has, in fact I would go so far as to say the last time anything excellent came from growing grass was corn. I mean that grass stuff barely has enough nutrients to break itself down when chopped & dropped or put into a compost pile.
     
  13. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Fair enough response. Innovation works both ways, I guess. It isn't like I can stop anyone anyway!
     
  14. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    actually, there are many places in the world that have very good grasslands (diverse ecosystem) and deep topsoils full of carbon. the problem isn't as much growing grass as much as it is burning oil and coal and then combining that with the destruction of forests and ruining the topsoil by over-exploitive or rather poor farming practices. other forms of trouble involve polluting water ways and ground water.

    if you are speaking of growing grass for lawns in the cities then i would agree that that is a pretty wasteful thing and a problem of sorts, but not nearly in the same realm as the blatant destruction of topsoils and the pollution of the rivers by fertilizer/pesticide runoff. a good thing though is that all of these are solvable problems.
     
  15. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    Paka - you realise those trees are leguminous and therefore have a symbiotic relationship with a strand of rhyzobia bacteria to produce the nitrogen via root nodulation, not the plant/tree itself producing the nitrogen?
     
  16. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    I'm thinking longer term Songbird, as in the last 400 years or so. Humans traveling from Europe to invade the Americas chopped down the nation without a thought from one end to the other in the obfuscation of progress. Many many many ancestors from all walks of life during that time period built properties with lawns in order to mimic the royalty from the countries they fled, or were forced into leaving via one way or another.



    Ng, I repeat....

    Commensal relationship as far as I can tell.
     
  17. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    There are three types of relationships possible in a symbiotic association.
    Commensalism
    Mutualism
    Parasitism

    Most if not all the associations we are discussing here would be regarded as mutualistic as both entities in the relationship benefit. Commensalism is when one benefits with no detriment to the other and Parasitism is when one benefits and the other is harmed in the process.

    The relationship between nitrogen fixing bacteria and the plant is kicked off by a complex molecular communication between the two. It involves molecular signalling 'pathways' which lead to specific things occurring eg. attraction; triggering specific physical changes in the root hairs to facilitate infection by the bacteria. This is a very complex process in which both bacteria and plant play crucial roles. It is a result of co-evolution.
     
  18. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    I totally agree but without me sounding overly pedantic - I stated there were no nitrogen fixing trees and the above quote agrees with me, the bacteria fix the nitrogen and the plant/tree feeds the bacteria, Q.E.D. it is nitrogen fixing bacteria, not nitrogen fixing trees.

    And in my view the description is rather basic and not totally correct but it does not diminish my statement.
     
  19. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    I think songbird has a point Paka. There are over 11,000 grasses (graminoids) and the dozen or so you talk about for lawns should not tar the rest with the same brush.

    Grasses are close to being the starting point in succession from bare earth to a forest (after weeds but most of those are grasses anyway). Capturing run-off water and organic matter, building the soil biology which in turn creates structure, humus and starts to hold onto the minerals. Follow this through over a couple of hundred years and you end up with a forest.

    We and animals eat more grasses than are sown on lawns, we all need them for food whether you are vegetarian or not, for carbon sequestration and the building of soils. Just because farmers don't farm sustainably or house owners don't understand the incredible cost to the planet of their lawns shouldn't take away the importance of grasses as one of the most, or even the most, important plant on the planet.
     
  20. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Could the bacteria fix nitrogen without a host to feed it?
     

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