What I've done recently.

Discussion in 'Members' Systems' started by S.O.P, Nov 11, 2013.

  1. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Agreed. I think we already know pintos are hard to get rid of, and in fact by replacing an aggressive plant with a more aggressive plant, we may just be making trouble for ourselves. So I'm leaning towards not using it here.

    I read a study a few days ago looking at production rates of bananas with pinto as groundcover, and it caused a decline. Makes sense.
     
  2. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    You should be replacing a very aggressive pasture grass with Pintos Peanut, for a less-negative experience in reducing evaporation, reducing the need to weed or mow, encouraging fungi etc. We have Setaria grass here, which can grow huge and very fast. Pintos is potentially the lesser of two exotic evils (Setaria is from Africa). I've made the mistake, due to time issues, to allow Setaria to establish in places. My shoulders slump when I think about doing something about it.

    In this study, were the Pintos inoculated? Bananas need all the nutrient they can get, anything that takes that away would be a negative. Were the bananas irrigated? Was there a control of no irrigation and no Pintos, or no irrigation and just Pintos?
     
  3. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Setaria here too (and Giant Paramatta). Really hoping competition and soil fertility take care of these 'problems' because they're too massive to contemplate otherwise.
    Our swales get competition from Kikuyu and bunch grasses (not Setaria or GP much).

    It's "Pinto" Peanut, by the way :)

    Here's the study.

    https://www.publish.csiro.au/?paper=EA9941197
     
  4. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Reading that summary (and I was partially right about the irrigation control), what do you think would happen if the water was turned off? The increase in soil carbon, increases in nitrogen and other elements, the increase in EC and I'm assuming an increase in associated soil life, the reduction in silt loss etc. would do the bananas better in the long run, don't you think? Particularly if one was unable to pump up from the valley dams to the high ridges like they do in Coffs Harbour (for example) after an energy descent. Though, if that happened, it would be the end of steep hillside banana farming as we know it.

    Really, and I'm going to sound like a broken record here, Vetiver hedgerows on straight line contours (they would self-level after years), would do the bananas so much better. They wouldn't compete with the shallow banana roots like Pinto would, would hold up all the silt and nutrient, particularly the chemical fert, heavy metals and pesticide that they pour over them from reaching those lower areas. Easy cut for mulch around the banana trees too.

    No reason why that wouldn't work. What they have done to north-facing hills in those areas is very sad.
     
  5. gbell

    gbell Junior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    What would happen? I don't know. We need data. And this data's a bit upsetting since, as permaculturalists, we tend to think "natural is better - 5 billion year track record". So if nature usually has a ground cover, a ground cover around bananas should improve yields. Except it doesn't.

    As far as Vetiver, I'm a huge fan. Two clumps rooted nicely in a rocky/dry/dead/eroding slope we have here. We have only a few clumps here, but next spring several are going to be divided like crazy and set to do all sorts of work around the place.

    But, Vetiver would provide root competition for bananas, wouldn't it? Sure it goes down deep, but it's dense near the surface too. And planted as you suggest would serve a different function (filtration, trapping, etc.) than groundcover.
     
  6. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Without studying it enough, using pure hypotheticals and I will reference studies I've read but don't want to search for, if you took the average steep north-facing hill used, stupidly, for banana cultivation with irrigation, pesticide, fungicide and fertiliser, I would do straight contour rows of Vetiver at a hypothetical 10-15m apart. From memory, clumps are kept at 3m or 4m centres? So, 1.5m standoff from a Vetiver hedgerow (which would suit man access as it terraced), 3 clumps down the hill and then another hedgerow. Saw a study between Vetiver and Lemongrass root competition in the immediate area and the Vetiver was far superior in not competing with surrounding trees (https://www.vetiver.com/COL_vetroots.htm - this isn't the study I'm referencing but it's close). Closer to my water source I would have double rows of permanent Vetiver for heavy metal storage for all of my chemical fert.

    So, in that layout, there would be no direct competition for the clumps, except for the adventitious feeder roots from the bananas that visited the area. Those are adventitious and will only use what they can find and would probably enjoy the silt and build of organic matter there. All the silt and nitrates should be recovered by the Vetiver and would protect the dam.

    Bananas are so finicky, especially with water, and that study leaves so much to be desired. I wouldn't use it as the death knell for Pinto Peanut, that's for sure. Would a different ground cover work though? What about Pigface or a small ornamental? Or a banana in a naturally moist area that isn't competing for water with Pinto?

    Edit: And I just read that study in fine detail linked above. I would say it enhanced that Cassava, especially with the roots chasing the water down along the Vetiver roots (probably air too). Lemongrass had it's pluses but if you were building more permanent polycultures, deeper roots would do you better in the long run.
     
  7. KiwiInOz

    KiwiInOz Junior Member

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Invercargill, New Zealand
    Climate:
    Temperate
    I had to laugh when I saw your brush turkey protection, because that is exactly what I have done - 4 foot high! I've only ever had one brush turkey here, but jeepers, what an effort they put in. It even took furniture off my verandah and added that to it's pile.

    I don't think the neighbours appreciate my efforts though, as the trees I "mulched" are right at the front by the boundary. They probably also know that it is mostly to keep their dang chickens off my tree mulch :)
     
  8. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Yeah, mine only lasts a few months. I haven't got enough trees to cut down to build the barriers, except maybe bamboo.

    Ours got mulch through a chicken wire fence, don't ask me how.
     
  9. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It's a lonely, back-breaking life:

    [​IMG]


    Pigeon Pea and below 2 months ago:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Weeds out of control:

    [​IMG]


    The multi-planting trial is going ok (Tree, Lomandra, Perennial Basil):

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    But the smaller trees struggle a bit:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    This is the bamboo clump that was cut down. It's been totally de-foliated 4 times and it's still making leaf and poles:

    [​IMG]

    And getting through the mulch:

    [​IMG]
     
  10. void_genesis

    void_genesis Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Your place is really booming after the rain as well. Always nice to see the photos. The "lonely, back breaking" bit is worrying though. I know from bitter experience how easy it is to start something garden related only to have it grow beyond all proportions and go from being a joy to a chore. I'm in the process of abandoning my old flower gardens at my parents place to weeds while I start up my new ones. Working with trees for a living probably makes it easier to overdose on plant related tasks. Do look after yourself, take the odd afternoon off to do something different when it seems to be too much. Some kind of physical recreation to strengthen your twingeing back could be productive- maybe a yoga class? Gardening can be dangerous stuff when your mind/heart isn't on the task.

    I just wandered down to my big section of cleared setaria that I half planted with asparagus seedlings and then half weeded and mulched. The unweeded/unmulched part is a riot of weeds, but I am just going through and pulling/topping off the species I least want growing in that space- the nastiest ones that are going to seed first is the priority to minimise long term harm. I'll have to go back and get the others later. Oddly enough for now the asparagus seedlings are growing just as well in the weedy section, so apart from the fiddly job to do of weeding around them there shouldn't be any great harm done. I'm starting to wonder how much asparagus my family can eat, but then again not much else is about that time in spring.

    My corner hill paddock has been measured and sprayed to make planting spots for my goat fodder trees in small groves. I think I have planted about 1/3 of everything so far (a total of 512 trees I am aiming for) plus some smaller groves of macadamia, chestnut and pachira on the lower more fertile slopes. I hope the good weather holds up long enough for them to settle in and the roos and hares don't take a liking to anything valuable. I read we are meant to be in for a drizzly winter, so hopefully spring/summer wont be too dry in turn. The cows are doing really well on the subdivided paddocks with weekly rotations- eating the grass much more evenly and carrying the animals on one less paddock with ease. By contrast a couple of other cows away from the main paddock were put on too large a cell for three weeks (not my idea) and it was amazing how it ended up with some patches eaten down to the dirt, and others completely untouched. Definitely not good for maximising photosynthesis during the rest period.

    Any advice on timing for planting out vetiver or dividing Lomandra from my creek? I want to plant a dam overflow soon before it floods again (probably in late summer) as an alternative to using rocks and wood. All the latest batch of vetiver divisions are growing well and could go out soon.
     
  11. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Hi mate,

    It's only backbreaking because I haven't designed the system here correctly. I will when I get settled at the another place. You can see, because of the way it is, I need to lean forward because I can't tuck my knees anywhere. At work, you work at a potting bench that's above stomach height, standing up on rubber mats, and can pot all day. I "should" do something about it but my focus is always elsewhere.

    I only do 30-45 min sessions which equates to 80 tubes pricked out and tubed. I love it though, every Lomandra potted up is another boon to some sort of riparian area or any garden. Vetiver and Lomandra are my focus as I believe they are 2 very important plants to any restoration and I can't stay mad at them.

    Vetiver likes heat, absolute full sun, and water so the maximum growth corresponds with that. This Autumn/Winter has been so warm it really hasn't stopped growing. Starting to cool now so not the best time unless you can keep the winter weeds away and it should settle in. Obviously, it will appear like it's not growing until it warms back up again. Some leaves will go purple if it gets cold enough. Think like Setaria growth, if the Setaria is going well so should the Vetiver.

    Lomandra divisions I have never done. I collect seed at the end of Summer and throw into a tray of potting mix and end up with a minimum of a thousand plants every time (you can see the tray in the pic). That's where the labour comes into it. My daughter sold a few at the markets and to the people in the know, they seemed very happy that someone is selling them cheap. You need a heap of it, you can never plant enough. I would attempt a Spring division, dig it up and soak it in some seaweed or Willow water and give it a crack. Or I would Google it. Or you could come and see me and I will give you 80 tubes if you give me the pots and tray back. That's at least an $80 saving.


    What's your goat fodder planting list? I think you could make good money from selling Asparagus crowns so don't stop there.
     
  12. void_genesis

    void_genesis Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    98
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Good to hear about the vetiver- I'll hold off until spring. I was trying to keep an eye out for Lomandra seeds on my creek but I think I missed the boat this year. I would be forever in your debt if I could get some spares from you. Id be just as happy with a big clump of seedlings as the divided and tube grown ones. If there is anything I can offer in return just let me know- you are welcome to a pot of asparagus seedlings as I have heaps. I also have spare Pachira nut trees and Persimmons.

    My goat fodder list is currently:
    Nitrogen fixers:
    Albizzia lebbek (some spare)
    Inga edulis (some spare)
    Erythrina crista galli (ideal I think) or variegata (bit spiky but easier to propagate)- need more cuttings of both
    Robinia pseudoacacia (good timber, hopefully not too weedy, tricky to transplant so far, more seedlings coming on)
    Non fixers
    Montanoa bipinnatifida (cuttings going in now)
    Moringa oleifera (hope they take my soil OK)
    Morus (some spare seedlings but not good fruit varieties)
    Bambusa oldhamii (cows love bamboo leaves, good charcoal and construction plus shoots to eat, but hope I don't regret putting in 64 of them- need to propagate them en masse this winter/spring)

    I have a long list of things to make random substitutions in this mix, but I am doing a 3x3 grid of trees about 3-4 m apart, with one corner left empty. Four of these grids go in each cell with a decent lane way between them and around the edge (about 6-8 m). This is to allow me to subdivide the cells into four when I have a smaller starting flock, then combine them later on. The outer edge of the cell of four subcells may end up being planted with hedgerow species (Malvaviscus, Tithonia, Leucaena, Grapes/Brambles/etc). The corners will be left unplanted for sealing up with mobile gates eventually if the hedges work well enough.
     
  13. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    It's up to you. You can either take a clump of unpotted seedlings and then do the exact same thing I have done, or you can take a tray of established Lomandra and secure your bank sooner than later. If you want to get it done this year, take the established ones. How many are you guessing? I'd hazard a guess you wouldn't have enough Vetiver at 10cm centres either? Want some more of that? My lease application didn't go through so my Vetiver expansion is greatly slowed but I have some to share. I'll be right onto propagation this year I think and have chosen the bare root method to save on time and resources.

    I also took down that M.alba I showed you pictures of on the weekend. Spring should bring some abundant epicormic growth and cuttings shall be afoot. The leaves are very smooth which, in my readings, makes them more palatable to animals (and potentially humans).

    Can you find cuttings of Coral tree? There are a lot in Brisbane and shouldn't be too hard to find. What's the trick to them?

    I've put another 10 or 12 A.lebbek in, not sure how they will go or how difficult it will be to manage them (at least they haven't been browsed yet). I've got 2 batches of Inga in 2 batches of potting mix and one is not growing well so hopefully they will recover when they hit the dirt (they look terrible, usually an application of lime brings some plants around but not this time). Tithonia truncheons are budding up at 15cm high so that's a little frightening. Lost one Tree Daisy, the other 2 have no roots yet. Found some more Moringa seed so I'm hoping I get better germination within the Pigeon Pea this time round.

    Where does the bamboo go in relation to the grid?
     
  14. Curramore1

    Curramore1 Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2010
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Primary Producer
    Location:
    Curramore, Blackall Range, S E Queensland, Aust.
    Climate:
    Sub-tropical to temperate 2000mm rain, elevated 350-475m
    Hi V-G,
    I have both common pesky Coral trees and Cockcomb Coral still if you want some cuttings. Seed of the Cockscomb will be a season away as they are in flower now.
     
  15. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi Curramore1 : )

    What are you guys doing with the coral trees?

    Hi S.O. P : )

    What are you doing with the tree daisy?
    Also ... I have tried casting lomandra seeds directly onto the soil I want them to grow in (on the creek bank) & have had only very minimal success with it. Also, it's not multiplying by itself (seeding itself without intervention) very quickly. Any tips?
     
  16. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    And check out this Coral Tree I came across in Bellthorpe:

    [​IMG]


    Helen:

    I've been told that chucking them around is a fool-proof way of getting them established and have yet to see the proof. For 2 years I had significant seedling numbers under my most fruitful Lomandra and that coincided with 2 years of excessive Summer rain during flowering and after seed drop. This year, the seed was there but the germination was terrible in heated trays and zero under the plants. Also, they do get browsed so an established one with older leaves is more likely to make it through.

    Most recommendations is to do it yourself into tubes, get them rootbound, take a crowbar and open a small slot and jam the tube straight into that small hole. That way, if it floods, they should be stuck in the bank.

    As for the Tree Daisy, and the Coral Trees, are that they are fodder trees. I don't have space for Coral but I can use Tree Daisy as mulch and fodder if I choose to later.
     
  17. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I didn't know Tree Daisy was a fodder tree. I have often wondered what you could do with it ... the leaves smell so beautiful when you prune them that you just know it has to be good for something : ) I knew it made good mulch : )

    What sort of coral trees are you using for fodder?

    I'm not sure what sorts of lomandra I have. There's a large-ish one on the creek & there's another small variety up the bush on the hills. When the one up the bush flowers it is simply divine. It took me till I'd been here a couple of years to work out what on earth it was : ) You'd get this absolutely heavenly aroma drifting past at certain times of the year, & I wracked my brain looking for the source of it. I happened to be up the bush one day when it was in flower the year before last, & managed to solve the riddle : )
    I dunno how the ones on the creek survive! They always have a huge amount of seed - every year. But I never see any more lomandra plants along the creek : ( I'd hate to have to give up & buy lomandra in tubes ... that would be pretty embarrassing : )
     
  18. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    You don't need to buy them, just take a tray of any type, put newspaper in the bottom to stop mix filling out (if needed), fill to 4/5ths with plain potting mix and firm down. Sprinkle all your collected seed that you grab at the end of Summer, cover with a fine layer of potting mix, and keep moist and warm. Winter sun is enough to germinate them. Probably take gloves, and a tray or large bag and slide your hands up over the seed heads. Remembering that there are male and female plants so you don't need to slide your hand up and down over the male seed heads as nothing will happen. You can sow them in the potting mix with the seed sheaths still on but rub them between your hands to remove a lot of it. Seed-raising mix may be better but they still germinate in potting mix if you can keep it moist (water every 2 days if needed).

    You can absolutely overstack them in the tray and get thousands of plants, so much so you will throw them away. My first tray done in that method kept me in Lomandra for over a year (I kept the tray in the full shade to slow them down) and I got over 1500 plants from it. The seed I used was from the good years and germination was huge (the commercial nursery at work said it was the best germination from seeds he had ever gotten as I supplied the seed from plants I bought from him). Just keep your eyes open, and grab seed from a few plants and perhaps types, and do a mix in the tray, You will be able to tell them apart when they grow most likely.

    The ones on the creek throw thousands of seed at the task and you may only get a few survive and like you say, any. Being a hard and small seed, I'd say most make their way into the water.
     
  19. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well I'll have another go because I'll be dammed if I'm going to buy them : ) I could do with literally thousands of plants along the creek - there was a fair bit of erosion during the last 2 big floods. The mature plants that are there have a huge amount of seed, I just don't see baby lomandra growing anywhere. Other people around here grow their own & tell me how easy it is ... I dunno what on earth I'm doing wrong. I'll follow your instructions & see how I go : )
     
  20. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Wow, my love of forums has waned to almost nothing.

    Not much happening but general gardening business. Haven't mowed any grass since Summer last year (I only mowed home twice all Summer too so that has to be some kind of a record). General tidying up of some Acacia that have flowered so heavy that they have split branches, the sound of the Europeans is pleasing as they hum away. Expanded the native bees with another log and hoping they will settle in and requeen as the brood was chainsawed in half. All branches and dead Pigeon Pea go into the chicken run to protect the small trees from the chickens (can't have ducks here)

    Have bought 2 IBCs that contained brine for wicking bed building when I get around to it. The mulch I have had around the place has rotted down to a humus and has now stopped shrinking in size so it's ready to use (took 2 years). I figure a mix of humus, river sand, some crusher dust and soil will do for a medium. Water got so tight here I abandoned all gardening and just kept the pots alive (same as last year) and this year I'm determined to be more intensive with better water usage.

    [​IMG]


    Few photos of the other place but without rain and with heavy frosts, nothing is really that photogenic unless you like yellow/brown. My lower bee planting, besides cow damage, mostly survived the frosts except the basil was defoliated and in some cases killed, and the Macaranga was defoliated completely. It may come back. Growing Albizia amongst Crotalaria was a success, no defoliation on the covered ones, the exposed all were stripped.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Still working on the bamboo mulch. Turns out it's excellent for 2 things being so rough, killing grass and preventing the bush turkey from digging into things. Seems they hate the bamboo on their delicate talons.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Babies abound:

    [​IMG]


    My new Vetiver prop area, this area takes an overflow from a gutter and is a low depression (was a pond that someone filled in due to drowning concerns. It's now full of nutgrass thanks to the soil they imported). Here you can see the four stages of grass killing. Newspaper, Bamboo leaves, Bamboo mulch, and chunks of bamboo to keep critters off it.

    [​IMG]


    And a good reason as to why you plant large Bamboo a good distance from any house. Fire risk. The roof, gutters, everything is a 6 inches deep in bamboo leaves. Cleaned it all up, went back 1 week later and it looks the same again.

    [​IMG]
     

Share This Page

-->