1. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    I think its preaching to the converted a product like this would be great for a fresh start in sterile soil backyards and degraded farmland that's where the market is not in 300mm deep sheet mulch properties ect ect . (Crash hat on duckin for cover) 8)
     
  2. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    IMO Yes Terra you are dead right I knew people here would be the harshest critics and I wouldn't have it any other way.
    People competent in permaculture, bio dynamics or biological farming theoretically should have the least to gain from this product but how many are completely competent ? They can save a lot of time and energy and gain a lot of confidence if they view Biota Booster as any other necessary input.I am still confident BB has different more advanced qualities than expressed so far by our resident experts!
     
  3. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    For me it is important, because of what I have ended up doing with it. Unfortunately I learned the hard way with an early brew that I foliar sprayed on some (what I thought were) rare Foxswhelp apple grafts that I did one year. Out of the 15 apple grafts I had done that year I ended up killing 9 of them so that got me started on the simple question of 'how do you do this properly'. It has lead me down a long but profoundly interesting line of discovery to the point now where I can confidently work with a vineyard and create a foliar spray that I KNOW will control their botrytis issue. So yes, for me it is important.

    On the other hand, as Terra rightly points out. I came across biota and brews after I had done a renovation on a suburban back yard and had around 15 cubic meters of compost delivered. I spread it around, put in a whole lot of fruit trees and other plants and sat back with a grin on my face - the trees went okay but 6 months later there was not one weed in the ground. That scared me as no soil should be free of weeds for that long if it is healthy. After some exploration I discovered how the so called compost was made and saw that it had been pasterised. It wasn't compost, it was mulch with the chemical structure still in tack and that was all. I added a mix of mycorrhizal spore and boom, everything took off like a rocket - including the weeds, but yes, I was smiling as I went about weeding as I know the life had returned to the soil. But the trinity was defined for me from that experience - soil is structure, chemistry and life, without a balance of all three you don't have something that will grow delicious, healthy food.

    In a nutshell, yes. Different composts, brews, foods, timing, temperature and amounts will produce different outcomes. But as above, start basic and do as much as you need to achieve the results you are after. Don't expect a can of Go-Go Juice from Bunnings to solve your biota situation just because it has 15 different types of micro-organisms in it. And to the same level, you don't need to spend upwards of 10 grand on a microscope, DO meter, temperature gauge and 1,000ltr brew kit if all you want to do is grow some veggies in the backyard (just add a mix of molassus, kelp and fish hydrolysate and let nature do its thing).

    Protozoa brew is pretty easy and no, I'm not pioneering it. They will grow out as part of a normal compost that has bacteria and fungus in it once the temperature falls below 50c. The F&B is the food they are after and in the process release N for the plants so it is a good idea to let your compost cool for a week or so before putting it on your garden. Some goes for the tea. You make a tea and the foods such as fish hydrolysate, kelp or complex sugars will grow out the bacteria and fungus, after another couple of days the protozoa come along and start feeding. To increase protozoa numbers the easiest way is to add lucerne into the original compost or add a simple lucerne tea to your brew in the second day. First day to get the F&B's grown out, then day two and three to get the protozoa and nematodes grown out. There is a range of different types of protozoa and nematodes so once again, the more diverse your original compost the more diverse your brew will be.

    A lot of people freak when nematodes are mentioned but root eating nematodes are a small percentage of nematodes but there are predatory nematodes that will eat these 'bad guys' and as they also eat the F&B they not only release N like protozoa but also P and S.

    I am happy to but have never really thought about it as I have this assumption that the information I've harvested is also out there for others to harvest if they have the interest. But then again, maybe it's time to rethink that if there is enough interest in the subject.

     
  4. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    This thread is very interesting lots to think about
     
  5. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Thanks for typing out that detailed reply.

    I'm interested in your basic methods of growing out and protecting fungi, bacteria and protozoa based upon the average compost piles made up of the average ingredients. Even your long-term composting methods are interesting.

    When to add food, what to add, amounts per amount of water, aeration lengths and the cycling you mentioned. How to create foliar mixes and soil blends. In recipe form and step-by-step.

    I can follow your previous posts but we have jumped around a lot. I can understand that the information is out there, but with your experience you can separate the chaff faster than the average person, similar to how anyone with experience in their field can quickly determine if something or someone is a sham. Arboriculture is my field.

    Also interested in the food that needs to be supplied to keep containers healthy before planting out. Whether or not potting mix needs to be used or discarded, whether or not a compost:river sand blend is enough, whether or not a pot with the average amount of chemical fertiliser in it is destructive (say a bought fruit tree has a liquid mix applied to the potting medium and then planted out later). You say a wide array of biota is needed, is that where commercial blends simplify the process?


    I'm not ready for aquaponics quite yet, but will spend an hour or two every now and again checking out systems, and equipment (hence using a forum to find info out about aerators). Last time I looked, it seems that wicking beds fed by recycled water from fish tanks skipping the aquaponic growing side is gaining some traction. That may solve the missing minerals from aquaponic-grown food? I've posted on there before trying to determine if I could run a native plant nursery from an aquaponic setup, using the nitrates to skip the nutrient part of the medium. Do you think the fungi/bacteria/protozoa that suit soil could survive in a flood-and-drain nutrient water?


    Edit: Just realised it sounds like I'm demanding something. Pretty please and only if you feel like it!!!
     
  6. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    :) All good questions S.O.P. and I do have a comment or two on most of them but as is my want at the end of the week I am about to head out to my property to do some work that makes me smile instead of just feeds my bank balance and will respond when I get back.

    On another note - is it best to continue this line of discussion in here as I feel we may have hijacked permasculptor's thread (sorry permasculptor, was never my intention and I look forward to having a look at your brew) or should we set up another thread?
     
  7. S.O.P

    S.O.P Moderator

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    Definitely. A new thread is a good idea and I do apologise to permasculptor and Peter.

    I'm doing the farm thing this weekend too, my plan is to attack many clumps of very neglected Bamboo so I will have it cut out for me. Best of luck to you.
     
  8. Peter

    Peter Junior Member

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    Hi Rick,
    I produce agrcultural mcrobes in the US. I am also doing a lot of lab and nursery research in Calfornia and Florida.
     
  9. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    We have & had a thread right here.
     
  10. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    Peter, before learning about the lowly 18 day composting method this last summer, I was making black stuff that took a year. But I believe the black stuff enhanced my garden soil and plantings, at least the plants grew bigger and seemed to me to be healthier. Using a microscope to find out what is in my compost and soil? I don't think so. I'm just working mainframe right now.

    I am open to experimentation and would be willing to try your product, or better described, your 100 hours of thinking, on different soil types and plantings I have in my possesion. You have a link?
     
  11. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    I don't mind you continuing here it is good publicity and the other thread is about EM not Biota booster.They are not the same thing.I have not yet found anything comparable to BB (and I have been looking and asking ) There are some products on the right track but still miles off as far as I know (Or anyone I have talked to knows of). I certainly don't want to bag EM as important as it is . BB is unlikely to be replicated at home or in the lab without Peters knowledge.
     
  12. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Senior Member

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    Suppose it all comes down to price/effort justifying the perceived or actual increase in yield and whether that can be validated and whether its important to an individual within a time frame.
     
  13. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    That is true but incomplete IMO Grasshopper as it does not take into account quality.
    This can of worms has been waiting to be reopened for a long time. In this case it brings your point to its limits such that it is not just about yield it is also about quality(for some) , a quality you will never have until you import the necessary ingredient if it is not already there.
    Fukuoka may just have had all the necessary ingredients for good produce already on his land,it doesn't mean he had the best produce possible.
    I am definitely not bagging Fukuoka I love his work .
     
  14. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Permasculptor,

    I am in no way bagging your new residual income... ..but as a Permaculturalist, I believe people need to be able to make this stuff themselves because I cannot get behind the peak oil usage for something not very difficult to make.

    For ME, this is nothing but another bought fertilizer. No offense intended, I wish you the best in the world.
     
  15. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    The question is does the product need to be re-applied? Or is it like importing a tree on to the property only once?
     
  16. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    Thank you Pakanohida for raising your point I was hoping you would as I think I have come from a similar perspective.
    I agree with you in that in an ideal world everyone should take responsibility where they can, including brewing of course and permaculturists like yourself are leading the way.However we do not live in an ideal world and the majority of people are looking for quick fixes to industrial problems in order to continue to profit from their exploits.
    I came to the realization approximately four months ago that lies and money win in the short term AKA Tony Abbott/Murdoch winning the election race.and as such I was forced into the conclusion that the only way to be the change in the world I wanted to see was to join the system in order to help build a replacement to supersede it.
    There may come a time when BB can be made at home but that time will not come until I build awareness and therefore demand for the product and that only relates to the diy'ers amongst us.Until then I firmly believe we have to adopt best use of suitable technology's to get us there.IMO Biota Booster is THE best use of technology to get us to a better place .Our aim (me and Peter) is to save the environment and we believe we have the product to do just that in the current social environment.
    Fertilisers feed microbes, BB IS THE MICROBES Please let us call a card a card!
     
  17. permasculptor

    permasculptor Junior Member

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    The question is does the product need to be re-applied? Or is it like importing a tree on to the property only once?
    and a great question it is too Rick and the answer as always -It depends.IMO on how well you nurture the microbes you import.
     
  18. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    A small issue with that statement - fertilisers, as a general rule, will not feed the good ones, it does however create anaerobic soils and therefore helps to create the exact microbes you don't want.

    Farm/larger hobby farm

    1/ Check soil compaction - once it hits 300 psi all biota will be anaerobic
    2/ Check nutrients
    3/ Check biota and grow out the mix required for your soil as both compost (for structure, nutrients and biota), brews (for exponential amounts of biota) or extractions (make sure you send them off with some food - a packed lunch ready to start multiplying)
    4/ If 1/ shows compaction then solve by ripping (preferable using Yeoman or on contour systems to allow water capture) and add compost and biota as/before you rip (compost can be left on top if you have a strong need for fungus, in soil if bacterial need)
    5/ Feed with foods such as kelp, fish and complex sugars twice a year for 2-3 years to establish them fully
    6/ Repeat 1, 2 and 3 as needed and adjust depending on results. All up this equals around 5% of fertilser costs on an on-going basis on a commercial farm but yes, it has similar labour costs.

    As previously noted - structure, nutrients and biota is the triad you are building. Compacted soils will not have the biology available to utilise any nutrients. No nutrients will kill or put to sleep biota, without the good biota and nutrients you have compaction and therefore no retention of water and air and consequently the biota living in your soils will be anaerobic and the roots of plants will simply dissolve due to the alcohols these types of microbes produce once they hit that anaerobic layer at 300psi.

    Home level - just make good compost (not mulch) and you will end up with the same outcome.

    I wanted people who are reading this to appreciate how many commercial farmers are already doing this and by default they are being organic farmers and including a lot of permaculture principles in their designs. Permaculture is seen as being very useful by farmers, you just need to provide them with a cost benefit analysis, they are after all in a business that they want to be sustainable.

    One farmer runs a 14,000 hectare property in Western Australia and has reduced is outgoings and improved his crop dramatically. Others run banana plantations that hold up to the cyclones that destroy their neighbors and consequently make big dollars when there is a shortage. Or vineyards that don't have to spray every year because they have killed off all the good fungus while trying to controlling other fungi. Others simply use less water, less sprays, produce better crops and make more money because they can sell it as organic.

    Permaculture needs to wake up to the concept that the message used up till now of "look after the earth, look after its people and share the surplus"is far too peace, love and mung-beany for a farmer with millions of dollars in assets that has to return a profit so they can service their debts - or go bankrupt.

    If you want to get the message out - work out what is in it for them so they can feed their families and be respected as incredibly hard working people that want to do the right thing by us all. Yes, even they want to look after the earth and its people, they just have a monkey on their backs in the form of banks, ag-companies, mates at the pub, family, the way their parents did it etc., which I believe can be easily shifted when you appreciate their situation and talk their language.

    Apologies for the rave :blush:
     
  19. Rick Larson

    Rick Larson Junior Member

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    These large farms will not make the transition to a low fuel economy. That is if they make it through the erratic climate.

    If these farms did an actual yield calculation, converting their fuel use to calories, then subtracting their calorie inputs from the colories harvested, then the future of their large farms will be clear to understand.
     
  20. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    I think you miss the point Rick.

    The farms I mentioned are making the transition. They are using biology they create themselves for a fraction of what it costs to buy in fossil fuel based chemicals, they use less machinary, less labour, less transport. Some even make their own bio-diesal to lower their costs further. Please don't give an industry a slap in the face just because it isn't perfect yet, do something to help them speed up the transition.

    But yes, if you want to be pedantic and look at calorie counts then there is no food that can be produced for less than its calorific input - the laws of thermodynamics see to that.
     

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