How long to make a 5-acre land productive

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by LouisR, Oct 22, 2013.

  1. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    Hi everybody,

    I live in the south west of France.
    I have the project to buy a 5 acres land.

    My question is : say I design it well (after I become a permaculture designer ;-) ), how long before I can make it productive and sell it back with this added value (to make money and buy a bigger land) ?

    Obviously, it depends on the land, but let's say it's a good piece of land, with a lot of water.

    Thank for your help.
     
  2. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Define productive.

    For many of us that would be - grow food and firewood to reduce household bills, enhance health and quality of life, improve the soil, increase biodiversity and native animal populations. None of which has a $ value. But it is highly productive.

    If you can do all that why would you want to start again on a bigger block of land? After the 5 - 7 years that it takes to get fruit trees to mature you can sit back and enjoy having to do less work and get an increasing yield. Money is an illusion - you'll need to perpetually do more work to get less yield. Work on getting a life, not making a living.
     
  3. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    Thanks for you answer.
    Sorry I should have defined productive at first.

    This land is not for building my house, it is for market gardening, I am not planning to live on it, it an agricultural land to be sold to a farmer then, but with the added value of intense permaculture production.

    Geoff mentions this in his videos, that one can do that to start gaining experience in permaculture design.

    See what I mean ?
     
  4. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    I agree Eco.

    Plus land speculation is probably why you can't but the land size you want already. Do you want to do that to other people? Land speculation and permaculture seem a contradiction to me.
     
  5. songbird

    songbird Senior Member

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    Occupation:
    gardening, reading, etc
    Location:
    near St. Charles, MI, USoA
    Home Page:
    Climate:
    -15C-35C, 10cm rain/mo, clay, full sun, K-G Dfa=x=Dfb
    so much of the answer is, "it depends."

    in real-estate there is no sure thing as many USoAians have found out the past 5 years. especially over the short-term. over the longer term with world population increasing and other needs also increasing it seems to make sense to invest in real-estate. cherish it and protect it, leave some for the wild-life which will continue to be put under pressure by pollution and habitat destruction.

    if we could somehow get the governments to get out of the land tax habit as that makes it so much harder to do conservation management if you have to worry all the time about losing your land because you can't pay the taxes... i'm beginning to think that the habit of taxing land is at heart a large reason for so much agricultural destruction. you have to have income to pay the taxes, which forces you to take a yearly approach to crops/yields instead of the longer view which includes cover crops, green manures, fallow periods, etc...

    *sigh*

    :)
     
  6. mouseinthehouse

    mouseinthehouse Junior Member

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    We don't pay land tax (South Australia), just council rates (about $1000/yr).
     
  7. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Land that fits those categories doesn't come cheap and is often already under cultivation. Good soil is hard to come by without intense effort. It also depends on what climate, what sun angle hits the land, when the rain falls in relation to harvest, what crops you plan and what animals you intend to use in your system - along with a whole bunch of other variables. It's like asking how long does it take to learn English.

    If you are looking for a way to gain permaculture experience I'd recommend working on other people's properties. All learning, no risk. If the crop fails you aren't the one crying. And you get to learn from other people's previously made mistakes rather than having to make them all yourself!

    Songbird - how much is land tax?
     
  8. Unmutual

    Unmutual Junior Member

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    There are usually ways around most of that if you're willing to either file the paperwork yourself, or hire a lawyer. Have you thought about starting a 501(c)(3), which is the US tax code gibberish for a non-profit organization? I'm pretty sure that if you purchased a block of land for rehabilitation and wildlife uses, you can get some kind of break from the government. They even have designations for wildlife refuges, at least in the US, to where it's difficult for people to take the land from you. And with a 501(c)(3) status, you can even accept donations from people to do the good work. If you have the money, it's probably easier(with a lot less headaches) to hire a lawyer to do all that crap for you.
     
  9. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    Thanks for your answers.

    It's not for speculation on the land, if the land is more productive than it was because of the input of Permaculture Design, then it gains value. No speculation here.
    And it's not to become "rich" or whatever, but to prosper and try to help Farmers in my region to turn themselves to fruits and veggies instead of only grazing as they do here.
    Plus, what inspired me the idea are the videos from Geoff...so it can't be bad, can it ?
    He explicitly mention that he did that as a kick start in his life (Buy small land, design them, and sell them).

    Actually there is a way to evaluation how long it takes to learn english...given the conditions.
    I am trying to find how low will it takes, with good conditions and good design, to make a piece of land productive.
     
  10. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    I'd like to grow mostly vegetables and greens, and poultry,
    as I understand it's long to make fruit trees productive.

    I would love to learn on someone else's land but there's none in my region knowing permaculture!

    The climate is oceanic.
     
  11. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I feel like all I've done is rain on your parade so far! Don't let me put you off. You need to just do it and learn from it rather than try to work out how to do it perfectly before you start. You'll never achieve anything if you don't leave open the possibility for spectacular failure! You CAN start practicing permaculture right now no matter what your circumstances. I live in suburbia on a pretty standard residential block.

    Look at what you are buying - can you make better choices? Can you learn to cook differently so you can make use of seasonal local produce? Learn how to preserve, make cheese, make your own soap? Can you make better use of the water that comes onto your property? Can you reduce your waste output to almost nothing? Find ways to grow stuff where you currently are. Make your mistakes small and build from them.

    I'm from the area where Geoff started life as a permie and I can tell you he didn't leap fully formed form the rocks and start with a 5 acre block. He played around in his back yard and made mistakes there and on other peoples places before he bought his first block of land and converted it along permaculture lines.
     
  12. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    Thanks eco4560, no problem, you're not putting me off at all, I can take more, as I am really enthusiastic about permaculture.
    Indeed, I know I won't be doing it perfectly before I start, you're right to remind me this.
    For now I am starting small projects in my friend's backyard or other's backyards in suburban areas, but I'd like to follow the PDCourse and use it to help increase the organic market gardening in my region.

    Nice to hear someone from Geoff's area, it must be so good to live there.

    I can buy better, but I am already being conscious of a lot of what I buy and eat, organic, locally, short . I am making some things myself. But I have no property yet.

    I a am trying to evaluate how long would it take to prepare a block of land in permaculture and sell it back to a garden farmer so he can sell veggies and fruits here. And then to do it again.
     
  13. yfnn

    yfnn Junior Member

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    You can find out quite easily how long your garden, or food forest, will require to reach good maturity. Find out the usual growth patterns for the specific plants you wish to plant in the area that you live. Climate zones help a lot. Comparing sunlight (intensity and quantitative amount), humidity, soil quality, your garden's spaceousness and general comfort feeling -- and you'll have a very great idea of where it shall be through time -- if you've helped or observed plants before in that environment.
     
  14. LouisR

    LouisR Junior Member

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    I am really new to this so I am going to dig out all this information. But I will. Thanks for your advice.
    What do you mean by Climates Zones ? Do you know where can I find them ?
     
  15. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Try something like this for starters. I'm sure with a bit of time in a search engine you can find something en Francais.
     
  16. yfnn

    yfnn Junior Member

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    Over here in California, North America we have all sorts of organizations that study the environment and provide the info, usually free of charge. Searching for 'Tree conservation, maintenance, cultivation ' ought to yield businesses near you that probably know the climate zone. Ask them if they've seen an apple tree grow or whathaveyou and that hands-on, local exp can be so helpful. ^^
     
  17. pavelbentham

    pavelbentham Junior Member

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    “For many of us that would be - grow food and firewood to reduce household bills, enhance health and quality of life, improve the soil, increase biodiversity and native animal populations. None of which has a $ value. But it is highly productive.

    If you can do all that why would you want to start again on a bigger block of land?”


    I was listening to an interview with Lawton just this morning. (Focus on Food podcast, Episode #13) Happy, healthy, productive people will see to a flattening of property prices. Why would they move when they have everything they need?
     
  18. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    Oh my - I read that and thought - wow Geoff says some really deep things that I can really relate to.

    Then I realised that I wrote that. (Face palm!)
     
  19. helenlee

    helenlee Junior Member

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    You're a dag :) And yeah, I thought it was pretty deep, & I can relate to it, so either I'm a dag too, or you're on a roll ;) :)
     
  20. eco4560

    eco4560 New Member

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    I'll just go with I was inspired by God (aka Kimbo) and I'm on a roll.
     

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