Recovering land from pine trees

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by Jaenicoll, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Jaenicoll

    Jaenicoll Junior Member

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    I have found 10 acres of forest covered with a monoculture of Pine trees between 5-20 years old that I am considering buying. The idea would be to recover the land from the allelopathic effects as quickly as possible.

    How hard is it to recover land from pines (say compared to compacted pasture land)?
    Do the needles need to be collected too? How?

    I was thinking of something like this:

    1. clear the land of pines (and needles if necessary)
    2. get cows into manure the region and eat the remaining veggies
    3. Keyline subsoil rip it (10-15 cm) on contour (allowing the manure to enter the soil)
    4. plant various cover crops and green mulch it 3-4 times over the next year
    5. build dam and swale system and food forest
    6. Repeat sub-soil ripping to greater depths in following years
    How does that sound? Any thoughts or tips?


    Cheers


    Jason
     
  2. Jaenicoll

    Jaenicoll Junior Member

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    Anyone? Anyone?
     
  3. pebble

    pebble Junior Member

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    Location:
    inland Otago, NZ
    Climate:
    Inland maritime/hot/dry/frosty
    What part of the world are you in? Climate, aspect, rainfall etc? Are the pines plantation for timber or what? What other vegetation is there: trees, shrubs, weeds? What is the purpose of the 10 acres once you have recovered it?
     
  4. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    Jason first off welcome to the forum , sounds like a terrific project and looks like you have the right idea . Ive seen paddocks of pines harvested and soon after plenty of green plants growing . Biggest problem will be the enormous enormous enormous mess , trees , rootballs , long roots , rocks ect ect.

    I have a small area , about 50 mature trees in the middle of my farm that were killed in the 2005 bushfire and have been falling over ever since (pretty dangerous to knock down without the right gear , tops were cracked over ) Plenty of green growing up through sticks and mess , there is still about 6 to come down as soon as that happens i will get a dozer in to pile them up , if your going to clear big trees i would suggest a 20 tonne excavator with a ripping spike .

    Is this in the middle of a pine plantation ( huge fire risk) or a isolated block , you will certainly get good water infiltration after upending pines , and there will be plenty of roots when you rip . Dont know about the matt of needles but by the time you knock the trees over fill the rootball holes level it off a bit so it doesnt look like a bomb site do your keyline work i recon they will be stirred up enough , you can always rake some up for future use .
    Rob
     
  5. Jaenicoll

    Jaenicoll Junior Member

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    Thanks for the questions and info guys.

    The land is in southern Brasil (30 degrees south), within the Tropical Atlantic zone of the endangered Atlantic Rain Forest (largely cleared for pasture and crops). It rains more in winter (temperate) but it has the vitality and speed of regrowth of a tropical zone. I estimate the pine grove to be just over 4 acres, sun-ward facing on a slope with gradients ranging from almost zero (a plateau) up to maybe 8 degrees with between 1300 - 1600 mm annual rainfall.

    It is in a region that has grown pine, acacia and eucalyptus for lumber, but is relatively isolated from other mono culture forests. The previous owner abandoned the land 20 years ago to live in the city and the grove looks like it wasn't planted too orderly (ie not in neat, well packed rows). I suspect the trees to be between 10 - 25 years in age. There is very little vegetation within the grove, but nearby there are fields left open for pasture.

    My concern is over preserving and repairing the soil and reducing the water erosion. Once the trees are removed and the holes and debris filled, I plan to get in there and rip the soil and quickly build a system of gulley dams, fed by contoured swales. Cover crop the area and plant a native food forest below the swales and bamboo on the dam walls. On the steeper slopes, encourage native plants and a native forest to become established as zones 4 and 5.

    Whilst waiting to see what nature reveals, I plan to select the building locations (probably built using a timber frame with either cob or straw bale or wattle and daub). Design zone 1 and develop the aquaculture and food forests using a mixture of Geoff Lawton and Sepp Holzer methods.

    My dream would be to make this a permaculture demonstration site for the region, provide accommodation for volunteers and later establish a permaculture training centre with lessons in Portuguese and English.
     
  6. Pakanohida

    Pakanohida Junior Member

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    Why not work with the land and soil instead of ripping it all out?

    Yeah it maybe acidic, but you can grow strawberries, huckleberries, apple trees, and more.
     
  7. Jaenicoll

    Jaenicoll Junior Member

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    Its a good question and good point and one that I would be interested to see opinion on.

    I could work the edges and try and plant some hardy plants that could survive in there. However, as it stands it is a forest desert with a tiny biosphere, a depleted risosphere and massive soil erosion and is doing more damage imo than it contributes.

    In fact, the neighbour lower down has cut a 2 meter deep drainage ditch all along the lower edge to divert all the allelopathic detritus washed down from the forest. He doesn't want any of the catchment of water or nutrient flow.

    Also, the Atlantic rain forest is now down to 7% of its volume, due to agriculture and mono culture forests like this and I guess my preference (unless dissuaded) would be to remove the majority of the pines (keeping a few) and try to encourage native species to re-grow and start the succession towards an established native forest.
     
  8. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    are the pines a native? the eucalypts and maybe acacia's won't be, if permaculture works properly replacing those exotic weed trees with native forest is heaps more preferable. the wildlife will also appreciate native habitat. our land was radiata pine weeds, we cleared like all do they serve no purpose except to acidify the soil, applying dolomite can correct that as will applying heaps of gypsum if you have clay.

    after clearing any acid issue from needles will be all but gone by 3 years.

    len
     
  9. andrew curr

    andrew curr Moderator

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    are they slash pine ?
    how much clearwood( knot free) do they have a value?
    iv always seen the land to recover quite quickley after pine
    things should decompose rapidly in your climate
     
  10. Terra

    Terra Moderator

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    If your worried about erosion post clearing do it in stages , clear some strips wing in a few swales , i recon pines are dreadfull trees just get rid of them they shouldnt have been there in the first place , in that rainfall they will rot pretty quick once you knock them down . Certainly plant up some trees that can provide building timber in the future , some quick growing poineer trees / bushes , N fixers you know all this . Well done and go for it start a thread in members AND we like photos .
    Rob
     
  11. NGcomm

    NGcomm Junior Member

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    On a side note - when you do your green mulch planting try and get a good dose of VAM mycorrhizal happening...and a full biota mix if you can get an assay done. It will take a few years to get the biota back into shape after all the pines but will be an investment well worth while in the long run.
     
  12. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    yes with terra,

    be mindfull of land slip/slide, i did think later about it but not knowing your slope, i let it slide, would suggest varying care with slopes from 8% higher.

    had a friend clear large forest trees from 10%+ slope, so he got better sun for solar, when he saw it bald he got a bit scared, we prayed nothing happened in his higher rainfall area, his house right at bottom of slope.

    yes do it in stages plant some native habitat leave it a few years to properly establish, for us on clay we use lots of gypsum, got native tube stocks planted 12 months ago reaching in variable to 2 meters high.

    sad around here land cleared by gov' for supposedly high value pine plantation mostly failed, as pine trees won't grow much without rain and on junk scrub shale soil, won't hold water.

    len
     
  13. camwilson79

    camwilson79 Junior Member

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    Hi Jason,

    I don't know the environmental conditions, but retaining areas of the pine could be prudent to provide protection for your establishing system. However, something to be careful about if you are removing a section of forest is the risk of suddenly exposing trees which were in the middle of a stand to strong winds. Because they haven't adapted to these edge conditions they can just go down like match sticks.

    If you inoculate the roots of the remaining trees with Lactarius deliciosus, it won't be long before you have plenty of mushrooms being produced.

    Rather than digging swales which can be difficult in an area which has been heavily treed, I'd suggest utilising the stumps as your uprights and lay any brush and logs which aren't sold in bunds on the contour. Pleurotus pulmonarius is an oyster mushroom which thrives on pine, and will give you food while turning your biomass into soil.

    Best of luck
     

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