Permaculture Design Course - How was yours run?

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by Boab, Jun 7, 2006.

  1. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Hello.

    I am currently doing a PDC and as I don't come from a permaculture background I am not sure what to expect. I've read a bit and found that not all courses are the same and I am finding out that through my course too.

    So if you don't mind me asking a few questions from those of you that have done one, I would love to read your reply just for the sake of comparison as I am now quite curious as to how things are done elsewhere.

    1. How long did your course go for?
    2. Where was it held?
    3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
    4. Did you break for public holidays?
    5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
    6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
    7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
    8. How much did your course cost?
    9. Did you feel it was value for money?
    10. Would you do it again?

    Thank you in advance.
     
  2. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Are the questions too hard or is this something not to be spoken about?
    Or should I answer them myself first?

    Confused,
    Boab :(
     
  3. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Good questions Boab. There is a course at Eumundi that I will definitely be doing once we have moved to Queensland. So I'm curious as well. If you have your own property can you incorporate designing for that property into your course, or is the designing work purely theoretical?
     
  4. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Hi Mungbeans. Thankyou. I can understand why people wouldn't want to answer them and to be fair I have answered them myself with the invitation that people may add what they wish to it. Yes, you can incorporate your property into the course but where I'm doing it, it costs more and all of the design work we have done has been purely theoretical. We did an off site tour but toured people's homes which consisted of disorganised and illegal greywater system, not to mention the dirt and untidiness of the properties we did see. Our "site" chosen for the design module was a student's workplace and we are, as I have learned, essentially giving them a design that the organisation we are learning with is taking payment for. I'm not sure how I feel about that yet. Maybe I'm too old and set in my ways but I expected something very different.

    Make of my answers what you will:

    1. How long did your course go for?
    Course runs for 14 weeks, one day a week. I later learned that the course also included APT students and the general public.

    2. Where was it held?
    At a community farm in Brisbane.

    3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
    No. Some materials have come from students themselves but about two weeks ago, I discovered that one of our regular teachers does not have a PDC certificate.

    4. Did you break for public holidays?
    Yes. Three times. Even ANZAC Day, which wasn't anywhere near our designated PDC day.

    5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)
    Yes as far as there are two "workshops" per day divided up either side of lunch.
    No, in that workshops changed around last minute, there was never a defined lesson plan as such, very little control of the class (people taking calls, going for walks and coming back when they feel like it etc) and they ran more like seminars; ie. person speaks at you. No practical work at all other than a tree planting session…and the mulching by the guest lecturer that day was done backwards.

    6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
    Left to our own devices. Some of us formed a study group where we'd exchange ideas/input on email which has been a blessing. Even those who have since dropped out of the course have remained with us which is great.

    7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
    I don't feel I learned anything of great significance really. From what we were given as pertaining to permaculture, I found it to be exactly the same system I was brought up with on the land in Europe many years ago with the learning I did do mainly stemming from adapting this knowledge to the Australian climate. This learning has come largely from books which I researched myself (we were not given a reading list or any learning materials whatsoever apart from the odd single or double sided page on that day's workshop topic) and from what I learned more through my fellow students - some truly amazing characters in that lot. A couple of gits too but I ignore them :)

    8. How much did your course cost?
    $950.00 on site or $1,150 if you want to use your property to incorporate your design module. There is a sliding scale but the majority of the group are working. The sliding scale has been opposed by some in the group too, citing it as being very unfair, considering that a few of them do accredited permaculture training (APT - an extra $1,100 - $1,400 I think) and volunteers who also work at the community farm for free.


    9. Did you feel it was value for money?

    Not by a long shot. I have absolutely no idea why it is so expensive and, as some bright spark in the group pointed out to us, if you work it out by workshop price ($30-45), it works out cheaper! We have had quite a few students drop out because of the price not matching the delivery of the course. To be honest, I've only stayed because to leave would not allow me to get a Certificate which would mean essentially losing all that money.

    10. Would you do it again? Not with them no. However, I have heard good things about Crystal Waters and other places though so I now regret that I did not do my research before shelling out a lot of money for what I consider to be very little in return.

    By the way, I am not bitter about permaculture. I put those questions up to ask whether this was the norm for PDC because, to be honest, I am not all that taken with 'permaculture training' at all. I am a herbalist by trade and training and I think I shall stick to that and what my parents taught me about farming which to my mind is permaculture anyway.

    I remain, however, very bitter with the organisation that ran the course and shall not be supporting them any further.
     
  5. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Hi Boab Gee you expected a quick answer didnt you... :lol:

    Unfortuntly not everyone in heres done a course,Its not compulsory either lol.

    I been doing Permaculture near 20 yrs now,Done the visits,meeting lots of wonderfull Permies,Grown lotsa fruit n vegies plus mumerous other things,

    I would love to take a course,but circumstances havent allways helped in this regard.

    Enjoy your course no matter how good,bad,or what ever,most here never get an oppotunity to partake in one.Not everyone here is near a teacher,let alone get one to visit or teach you.Not that im critisising,

    Let us know how,what you thought of your course,wed all like to know

    Tezza
     
  6. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Choosing the best pdc is difficult. I have put off doing one for years -
    Best advice is to talk to a lot of people about the best pdc. Join a permaculture group and find out what's available.

    The ones that have been recommended to me are:

    Crystal Waters with Morag Gamble
    Crystal Waters with Max Lindegger (?) (he focusses on built environment)
    The Food Forest in Adelaide is one of the most highly recommended ones, but unfortunately they don't offer them in blocks of two weeks for interstate people, they run over a series of weekends which is just too inconvenient.

    This is not to say any others are bad... just that these kept coming up as recommended.

    I'm doing some permaculture study through the great little Chevallum Organic Gardening Club here on the Coast. The course is being run by Janet Millington, who is a well-known permaculture educator. She is offering a PDC at her property at Eumundi in October 2006 for 13 days. The cost is $440 pp without accommodation or food - both will cost you extra. Hopefully I will be able to do that pdc with her.

    If you are thinking of going on to teach permaculture - Robin Clayfield at Crystal Waters is the one to do a course with. Her 'Dynamic Groups creative facilitation intensive' is THE course for learning how to teach permaculture. Nearly all the pdc schools recommend her course.

    Robin's next course is 10-15th July 2006, which I hope to be at. I think the cost is $795, but don't quote me on that...
     
  7. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    I was thinking of doing something with local community based permies, where you just rock up and get your hands dirty and learn bits that way.

    Wouldn't it be great if all the knowledgable members here divised an online thing here?
    like start with step one with the basics and build from there.
    dunno but it would be interesting to keep up with a thread that was designed for begginers and lead up to advanced theories that we could learn at our own pace and implement things we learn in our own backyards.

    sorta like a permaculture for dummies course :)
     
  8. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Sonya, this is the course I am thinking of doing. I'm particularly interested as it includes incorporating aquaculture into the designs. Could you please let us know how it goes?

    In the meantime I'm trying to read the Designers Manual by Bill Mollison. Its borrowed from my brother, who did Permaculture as part of his horticultural degree. Which brings me to:

    Boab, were these sites presuming to showcase permaculture? If so, that is depressing. One of my brother's biggest complaints about the way permaculture is practiced by many (and he is a big fan) is that many ignore aesthetics. Utility is important but beauty is food for the soul.
     
  9. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Tezza, I thought what I wrote pretty much spelled out what I think of my course. Did you want me to expand on this?

    Aesthetics in permaculture? Not with this lot. Not that it was a huge concern to me, though. My concern lay with the illegality of the systems moreso than the look, particularly the precariousness of some of them. I am of the opinion that condoning the premise "you can do what you want because it's permaculture" isn't a good way to go.

    As for a PDC, I'm not planning to do any more non-accredited training under the permaculture banner. There is accredited training run by TAFE which I will look into but I'm afraid what I've seen with this organisation and a few others is that it's far too 'lax' for my liking.

    As for getting your hands dirty, that's why I chose to do it at a community farm!! But all people seem to enjoy doing is talking about it which for some students, this just isn't adequate.

    I am interested to read that one does not have to be a qualified teacher in order to teach. I was just reading a thread on this forum that clearly states that you do. And it was certainly the impression that I and others in my class were given prior to starting the course. But I hasten to add that I'm not necessarily a 'qualification nazi', but I do expect a decent background coupled with an assessable skills base that can be held accountable. It's just not enough to say, "Well I've done this and that for five years..." To be taken seriously, you have to be able to back up what you have. As for learning how to teach permaculture, group dynamic facilitation is not teacher education. Pardon me for saying so but I think that, in addition to the PDC course itself, is another moneymaking gimmick.

    I am not attacking anyone personally, just stating my opinion and this is how I see it.

    Thank you for your answers. Most appreciated.
     
  10. Mike_E_from_NZ

    Mike_E_from_NZ Junior Member

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    Oh boy, this one is sure to get the masses arguing. You could fill Murray's server space with the different views.

    If it has lots of life going on then nature thinks it is just fine. If you can also eat and live from it, then Bill Mollison would call it Permaculture. If it is also (and very definitely lastly and leastly) pleasing to your particular eye, then good on you.

    I recall one of Bill's books dismissing tidiness as the morbid desire to control and subdue by someone who lacks creativity. That is very definitely paraphrased - so please feel free to correct me. He was equally dismissive in the flesh.

    Mike
     
  11. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Boab, you sound pretty p* off. Not that I blame you considering the cost of the course you did. I'll certainly be asking a lot of questions now before I sign up for my course now!
     
  12. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Nooooooo…I'm not pissed off. Well not in an explosive, vindictive, snipy way anyway. :lol: I'm just assertive when it comes to writing something down, particularly when it concerns being hoodwinked.

    But I do admit that when I think of the money and effort I've made for a course that just hasn't made the grade, I admit part of me wants to shout out "caveat emptor!!" from the rooftops to other unsuspecting permaculturists/farmers like me. (That's "buyer beware!" for those of you too young to remember the compulsory Latin classes at school.)

    I agree with the earlier statement about beauty. Most people who dismiss order as being a freakish penchant for control are usually those who can't do it or can't understand it because it does require a certain amount of flair. A modicum of order is necessary in our everyday lives. This ensures that tasks are completed and we live in a healthy way ensuring our survival (take a look at anarchic events - nothing is achieved). But I think beauty is food for the soul and I do see beauty in permaculture - just not in the PDC.
     
  13. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    The most productive garden I ever saw was the one tended by my grandmother in Lithgow. She immigrated from Scotland with her husband who was injured working in the mines. They were poor, barely scraping by on a invalid pension. The only fertiliser she used was the manure she got free from friends with nearby farms. And yet every time we visited we came away with a car boot full of veges. I still remember it as a place of beauty and wonder. I remember as a child stealing carrots out of the ground and then hiding in the arbour behind the rose garden to eat them.

    I can just imagine her response to any praise of untidiness. I wish I had a fraction of her creativity. If there was anyone who had an excuse to spurn flower gardens and arbours as useless frippery it was her. But I know her flowers sustained her soul as much as her vegetables sustained her body.
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Boab,

    I am sorry to hear trhat you did not get a good course, and that it left you unsatisfied. The course you took sounds incredibly dysfunctional, and is not like the courses I have been involved with.

    I took a PDC in 1992, and it was a life changing/paradigm shifting experience for me. The teachers were Rick Valley, Jose Caballero, Michael Pilarski and Chuck Marsh. It was a two week cocurse, with accomodation at a farm down the river from us.

    The course followed a loose assortment of topics that NEEDED tobe covered, but as all of the teachers were coming from all over the US and Mexico,and this was pre email (how did we ever survive with out it? Hahahaha) they had to come up with a curriculum as the course rolled! That sounds worse than it was, as the teachers and info were great!

    The PDC I took was profoundly life changing, and is perhaps the most well spent two weeks of my life. I have said this many times, but considering the price of a piece of land, the price of the mental tool kit a good PDC gives you will make your land more valuable quickly!

    In February, we hosted a PDC here, but, ulike the course I took, we had half of the participants from Belize, 7 of whome were funded by Protected Areas Conservation Trust, and two of whom our NGO funded directly. The Belizeans were from Community Based Organizations and NGOs that work in development and agriculture, and we also had two attendees from Ministry of Agriculture, so the info has the capablity to be very broadly disseminated. The mixture of Belizeands, Americans Canadians and the lone Brit made the course more interesting for all of the particpants, which I think added a lot to the course.

    We did not teach it (other than I did a big part of the agroforestry session, since that is my area of competence, and I also did part of the renewable energy discussion, and used existing systems to show the technologies), and mostly facilitated the course, providing good organic farm fresh food, keeping the toilets stocked with sawdust and TP, keeping the coffee mugs full, etc.

    The teachers were Toby Hemenway and Penny Livingston, who were btoh excellent teachers, and I learned a lot from watching them teach, during those intervals when dishes didn't need washed, or some otherpressing infrastructural need wasn't screaming my name.

    They had a very tight curriculum, with an extremely well planned set of lessons, and an engaging demeanour in the classroom. Judging from the written feedback we got after the course, they students were all very satisfied with the teaching, and also with the food and accomodations (huge relief to us as we had never had that many peopple for two whole weeks).

    The success if the course, and it was a huge success, lies in no small part because we were well prepared and well staffed with a good mx of volunteers and locals in the kitchen ( Allegra, Jocelyn and Anne Sophie, Amara and Miss Cenovia, if you read this, you are wonderful!), in large part because the teachers were simply outstanding, well prepared, enthusiastic and excited, and, perhaps this is the biggest part of all, the attendees were a truly fantastic bunch, excited, appreciative and interested (and interesting!). We simply could not have gotten better people to takke the course. There were tears at the end of the course, and everyone felt really good.

    Moving on to your questions, and ansered with a) for the course I attended in 1992, and b) for the course we hosted:


    1. How long did your course go for?
    Both courses were 14 days.

    2. Where was it held?
    Both were held on farms on the Columbia Branch of Rio Grande, up river from San Pedro Columbia.

    3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?
    a) Not sure. The first course was long ago.....
    b) Yes, both Penny and Toby have some sort of certification.

    4. Did you break for public holidays?
    No

    5. How was your course structured?
    a) Two weeks worth of courses, with field work and some farm cvisits. Lots of classroom and hands on time
    b) Two weeks worth of courses, with field work and some farm cvisits. Lots of classroom and hands on time

    6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?
    a & b: A little of both in both classes. The students broke up into groups to make designs for several areas on MMRFs land, which is all theoretical, tho it was good for us to see the farm through other perspectives.

    7. Did you feel you learned a lot?
    a) I was washed over with info. I tried to absorb it all, but.... luckily I kept notes!
    b) The students all said the course was really informative and valuable

    8. How much did your course cost?
    a)USD500
    b)USD1200


    9. Did you feel it was value for money?
    a) Absolutely. For anyone buying land, the small price of a course will be made up for by avoided mistakes in land use (my hypothesis, anyway)
    b) I hope so! Everyone said it was in their evaluations.

    10. Would you do it again?
    a) Absolutely
    b) We have a course scheduled for February/March of next year!

    I hope that was helpful!

    Best,

    C
     
  15. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Hey Mungbeans,

    I'll let you know how Janet's course goes. I haven't been out to her property, but I know she has a permaculture crayfish farm, so I guess it will focus a lot on aquaculture.

    Aquaculture isn't really my main focus - but we do have two dams and I have been to one of Janet's lectures on aquaculture and came home all inspired!

    I think a forum like this is a great way to find out what things are really like. The good and the bad. Each pdc will have slightly different focus though, depending on the experience of the teacher and the property it is conducted on. So you can choose one that 1) is close to home, 2) the right price, 3) conveniently timed 4) recommended or 5) has an emphasis on something that interests you in particular.

    I'm doing a course with Janet at the moment every Saturday, it can go toward permaculture quals, but it is not a pdc.

    Most of my study so far has been with Jade Woodhouse - she doesn't do a pdc as such, but covers things like intro to permaculture, organic vegie growing, chook care, food forests, composting, worm farming, green manure crops etc etc etc etc.

    I do plan to do Janet's october course to gain pdc certification to perhaps start teaching in the future, and I imagine I will end up doing more than one pdc in my lifetime, as a lot of people seem to do.

    Cheers,
     
  16. Mungbeans

    Mungbeans Junior Member

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    Sonya, thanks. Your reply is very encouraging. I showed the link about the PDA course at Eumundi to my husband several days ago. Its definitely on the agenda, once we find our property. We've fallen in love with Pomona, so that's our dream..
     
  17. Boab

    Boab Junior Member

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    Why would you do more than one PDC course when you have the qualification in the first place? It's like repeating a grade over and over again. You don't further yourself. By all means go on and do further levels in permaculture as there's certificate courses from level 1 to 4 but repeating the PDC seems ludicrous to me.

    Well as far as courses go, Christopher, it looks as though I landed a stinker. Nowhere nearly as organised as your group appeared to be. I note the class is low in number too. Our classes are large (or were, until people started dropping out) - some twenty five students or so.

    As for tidiness, well I believe it says a lot about a person. It tells you that they are organised both in thinking and doing. It tells you they care about things, about themselves. It also often marks the merit of their expertise in an area as well as their conduct. Even contrary to the notion that artists' studios are traditionally chaotic, I would invite you to look closer and with a good artist you will find order, right down to the very last brush.
     
  18. Sonya

    Sonya Junior Member

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    Hey Mungbeans,

    Pomona is a great place (we are just at Eudlo) and Cooroy would be worth a look too. Plenty of permie contacts up here so you will be able to establish networks pretty quickly. Permaculture Noosa is based at Cooroy and there are lots of PETS days up that way (permaculture energy transfer days - where a load of people go to one place and get a major project done for the owners)

    As for doing more than one pdc. I've got a lot of years of permaculture ahead of me and a lot to learn. As I said, PDCs offer different focus, so as I learn more I'd probably want to expand my knowledge. I'm a big believer in learning a lot of different ways from a lot of different people.

    You can never learn too much! and you always make good contacts too...

    Cheers,
    Sonya
     
  19. kathleenmc

    kathleenmc Junior Member

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    hi Boab...here's my bit....

    1. How long did your course go for?

    2 weeks with a one day break in the middle

    2. Where was it held?

    Bega Valley NSW

    3. Do qualified permaculture teachers have to run it?

    Yes....qualified teachers who have the Permaculture institute's endorsement are the only people who can offer you a certificate as far as I am aware of.

    5. How was your course structured? (Did it have any structure?)

    We learnt from 9-5 everyday and had several different sessions each day...it was mind boggling for me...my brain hurt a lot....

    6. Did you get homework, feedback etc after the lesson or were you left to your own devices?v

    No

    7. Did you feel you learned a lot?

    Absolutely but then for me it was not enough!!!! Went and did and APT course for a whole year to get what I wanted....

    8. How much did your course cost?


    $750 with 250 LETS componant and food during the day

    9. Did you feel it was value for money?

    Absolutely

    10. Would you do it again?

    Yep...actually it is good to go and join in on other PDC's if you can so you can learn different techniques and approaches from people...if you've done a course before you can negotiate price with the next course (sometimes for free!)....different climates also have different approaches as well....


    I'm wondering if you're talkiing about Northey st in Brsbane Boab? It's a shame if it is the one you are talking about as my experience with them has been positive, but I wasn't doing a course. I hope you gave them some constructive feedback as it is good to let people know what works and doesn't work for you as it is a way of keeping on improving the system...

    Cheers Kathleen
     
  20. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I'm about half way on the beer can canoe Chris, now where's that other sixpack gone...... It's on my wish list to travel around South America ending up doing my PDC with you guys, that would be so cool.

    Question with the course, do those running the course set extra subjects? like eco housing design or how to graft a tree, that sort of thing? or is the course set in what is taught.
     

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