Fires, Science, Learning, Design

Discussion in 'General chat' started by Jana, Feb 8, 2009.

  1. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Until we get a branch of science on Origins and a Science of Interdisciplinarism, we cannot really say we have entered the scientific age. And we do not appear to be learning very fast.

    Take for example the burning of the state of Victoria. We have a sunburnt country, with insufficient water and forested with highly volatile trees which give off explosive oils. We still have a population that builds houses made of sunbaked wood. 47 degree Celsius = 116.6 degree Fahrenheit Wind gusts of up to 60 miles per hour fanning the fire. 100 dead and 700 homes gone when people are already struggling due to recession.

    www.earthbagbuilding.com/slideshow.htm —Earthbag buildings.
     
  2. gardenlen

    gardenlen Group for banned users

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    yes jana,

    seems not one lesson has ever been learnt from previous periods when we had these sorts of fires, not one single lesson, too many lives lost too no avail, too much property destroyed, heart ache pain and anguish then the pain of higher premiums for all. give me a home among the gum trees is just as relevent in this indoctrinated lifestyle people seek as it ever was. and on top of it all, we still decimate our habitat.

    the romance says we must build in wood, green living trees burn what hope a structure of dead wood?? yet guess what after all this tragedy they will rebuild in wood, they will re-grow the gum trees, because hey? it could never happen again can it??? don't be holding your breath now.

    len
     
  3. Luisa

    Luisa Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    I disagree that it's lack of science. I have friends who work as planners and scientists in various levels of govt. They have tried getting controls on these things and between pollies and other interest groups, a lot of the controls that could save lives get watered down.

    A developer wants a rural residential subdivision and sells it with Disney terms like "in harmony with nature".

    Try getting this stopped. There are $$$$ to be made and no matter how good the scientific advice, no-one wants to hear it.

    In forest country houses should only be in settlements which have 100 or 200 m cleared buffers around, houses built to fire standards with a fire refuge (like a safety room inside). These may not be necessary on plains and low scrub country but yes in forested country. It makes the settlments safer, makes the jobs of emergency services safer and lowers council costs as services are all together.

    But it'll never fly politically.
     
  4. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    It is obviously a chain of command problem, lack of communication flows and lack of education. The fool-you-monkey mechanisms of our commercial world are the new survival pressures on the species.

    Hopefully this sacrifice of life will stimulate some lucidity in the halls of obsolete authority.
    The house building industry has an obligation to build houses that are suited to the environs and don't kill people.
    The local and federal authorities have an obligation to plan for the protection and well being of the citizens.

    As I fire raged, I mourned, but I was also angry...the Aussies have been on that continent for 200 years and have not yet been enlightened as to correct lifestyle practices. I wonder what the Abos do in the way of living with fire.

    At the very least there could be fire cellars built in the middle of ones lawn away from trees and house.

    When the top monkey, ie: the institutions and people of authority, are hell bent on accumulating more power and resources at the expense of the tribe, then we have to start operating in ways different to that which we have automatically played for millions of years. We have to change our leadership/membership pattern and we now have to embody the whole tribe within, including the Alpha Male, "the decider." If the broad reach of civilization itself is destructive to the earth and our potential life-support systems, then seeking validation from an authority system that is biologically obsolete is plainly species suicide. Thus each of us must be awakened to the "call of the wild," to the Muse, to our inner sovereign leader to avoid rote learned obsolete-science. Until we get a branch of science on Origins and a Science of Interdisciplinism, we cannot really say we have entered the scientific age, nor do we appear to be learning very fast.

    Awesome series on Sapiens' origins.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jJgZO-I ... playnext=1 —Walking with Cave Man Series Part 1, #1
     
  5. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Richard Feinmann pointed out that “time binding,” the phenomena of racial memory accumulating knowledge from one generation to next, was accelerated in the hominid species. But it had the potential for disease within the mechanism – the passing on of mistaken ideas. Thus if the default behavior is to take our knowledge second-hand or worse (third-hand, fourth-hand, etc.) we learn “remotely” from someone else's experience and illumination. To be a part of the group we are encouraged to devalue our own experience in favor of the collective dogma. Through time, with the swing of the pendulum, the information becomes obsolete and even toxic, because circumstances have changed and yet we still cling to old and obsolete ideas. So using “collective-think” is a double edged sword. When things are obviously not working for the rest of the tribe, then we plainly need to start thinking for ourselves.
     
  6. trishandpete

    trishandpete Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Step back, Jana. You don't know what you are talking about, and you don't use the abreviation "Abo" it is offensive to Aboriginal people. And laying blame at this stage on the victims is just bloody cruel, do you even realise how you sound from way over there, to those of us here who have been so savagely touched by this thing. So just back off, for once, take a deep breath, and a compassion pill.
     
  7. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    I use the term Abo with respect...what do you call the indigenous people of Australia?
    It would be great if you could expound on how Australia has been making itself into a fire-ready culture over the last 200 years and if it has not been the exploitive nature of modern culture itself that contributed to this particular situation, then what exactly was the mechanism of 700 houses lost and 100+ individuals dead.
    I am not saying that I am any further along than Aussie culture. I am asking why this event played out like it did and how it could have been done differently, and will the same set up be created again so that 5, 10, 15 years down the line the exact same scenario will play out in full.
    I sympathize with the situation, and I know everyone was trying their utmost to deal with the impossible.
    But unless there is communication over this issue, the same mechanisms of govt. commerce and habit will perpetuate this over and over and over and over again.
     
  8. trishandpete

    trishandpete Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design


    The term "Abo" cannot be used with respect, at best it's used with ignorance. Just like no white man can really use the term "nigger" with respect. You call them Aboriginals (make sure you use initial capital), or use their language/cultural group name (collectively in Victoria it is usually Koori, though there are many different local groups with their own names). You might even call them First Australians. And they lived with fire as a scourge as well as a friend.

    As to your sympathy... save it, or donate money to the Red Cross. Some practical help, rather than pontification, would go a long way to establishing your bona fides in the sympathy stakes. As to enlightening you, expounding on fire-readiness, I don't think it's possible, because you seem to have all the answers already.
     
  9. Hamishmac

    Hamishmac Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Jana,

    Thank you for sharing your

    emotions
    , opinions
    , and questions
    on the bush fire tragedy.

    Our rights to free speech are extremely important, but carry some degree of responsibility. It may or may not have been your intent, but your comments carry offence and hurt.

    If you would not say them directly to the face of

    the families of 170+ dead,
    the horribly burned and maimed choking the hospitals,
    the thousands of homeless,
    the tens of thousands affected, fearful and vulnerable,
    or the Indigenous Custodians of the Land,

    then reconsider the appropriateness of placing them here at this time.

    There are fellow Permies, members of this forum, and forum readers who have lost much, or still have much at stake, and the fires still burn.

    There is time aplenty for debate and examination in the future.

    At least let the embers grow cold.

    Hamish
     
  10. trishandpete

    trishandpete Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    There are fellow Permies, members of this forum, and forum readers who have lost much, or still have much at stake, and the fires still burn.

    There is time aplenty for debate and examination in the future.

    At least let the embers grow cold.

    Hamish[/quote]

    Well said, Hamish. I hope you are nice and dry up there? T
     
  11. Jana

    Jana Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    To be technically correct even the term Aborigine could be seen as insulting, considering they already have a name Koories...perhaps it is only PC to call a people by the name they give to themselves. Personally I think the term Koories also sounds insulting.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ma ... ustralians

    I like the idea of fire cellars, it would be down wind from prevailing winds...granted one might die getting to it. I figure you could use a metal door covered with ceramic tiles...with an insulting layer between. Fire igloos would also work, but I think it best to be below ground level...one would probably only need to stay it it for 1/2 hour. Mind you if your house was a sod house with tile roof, you no doubt could stay in the house unharmed, but would need double glazing or fire shutters on the window.
     
  12. springtide

    springtide Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    "Koories" I think is south, further north they get sometimes get referred to as "Murrays" but check out this for a few tribes https://www.aiatsis.gov.au/aboriginal_studies_press/aboriginal_wall_map/map_page and these are divided further so any term is going to be collective. At any rate i used to get roped in to helping a Girl Guides group in this area and i know a few people there so for the sake of the few can we please wait for the toll to stop rising before we make smart remarks from the other side of the planet?
     
  13. raincrow

    raincrow Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Jana, I may be new to this and clueless as to how these postings work, but it seems like you are not reading the other posts.
    Isn't it time for an "I'm sorry"? Sensitivity is part of permaculture too. rc
     
  14. Ice Czar

    Ice Czar Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    there is an famous earth sheltered house built in the 70's in California that has survived many fires that wiped out its neighbors
    however, having fought a grass fire myself (on a very steep slope),
    whenever there is a firestorm situation provisions for oxygen starvation need to be addressed

    the night I fought the fire in Lyons Colorado, the sole injury was a firefighter that passed out after getting caught in a oxygen starvation pocket
    luckily because it was a steep slope, he rolled down the hill out of it, with just smoke inhalation, minor burns and a broken arm.

    We just went through a very similar situation of wind driven fire here
    https://news.lalate.com/2009/01/07/boulder-fire-2009/
    and given the large amount of beetle killed trees in the Rocky Mountains, are very likely to have a catastrophic fire sooner rather than later
    property damage and the threat of loss of life will ultimately lie with the same lack of concern that people and governments practice when they ignore natural fire cycles and fuel loads. Choosing to live in a danger zone while ignoring the consequences of their building decisions.

    We don't have to be this short sighted, nor do governments, but there is considerable inertia in the building trades and industry that seem to simply follow the path laid down before.

    I would highly recommend the work of Stephen Pyne, which might even be available at your local library
    specifically
    Vestal Fire. An Environmental History, Told Through Fire, of Europe and Europe's Encounter with the World
    Introduction to Wildland Fire
    Burning Bush. A Fire History of Australia
    Fire: A Brief History
    World Fire. The Culture of Fire on Earth

    I personally find it disconcerting that the government and media focus is on possible arsonists
    rather than acknowledging the issue of human intervention in the natural fire cycles.
    Without recognition of the need to better manage and integrate the populace into the environment
    especially with high fuel loads and super dried conditions, a repeat of events in inevitable.
    We all need to both adapt to the natural cycles and acknowledge that when we intervene
    we need to also assume the role that fire plays in the natural environment.

    Of course humanities short sightedness applies to flood zones equally as well.
    We have a serious problem with risk assessment whenever it crosses over into the economic sphere of property development.

    my condolences to the victims and their families
     
  15. trishandpete

    trishandpete Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Since Kooris call themselves Kooris and Aboriginal People, and Murris (in QLD), and other names throughout Australia, I think we can leave that one settled. It's not up to you to decide what is insulting to them/us. Sort out your own indigenous peoples issues...

    As to sod houses. There were a number of mudbrick/rammed earth homes lost completely, in minutes. Glass and metal inside melted to a twisted congealed mass. Human flesh would certainly not be unharmed. And the smoke....

    However, a bunker underground, made of concrete with a supply of compressed air like scuba diving tanks, might be an idea. My husband is in the process of desiging one as we speak to site on our property which is about 40-60 trees to grass. You'd need only minutes in it in a grass fire as it moves faster than the wind, up to 70 or more km per hour. Under trees would be another issue. I have seen treated patients who have walked across the ground near a burning stump thought extinct from fire a week previous, only to have it cave in because the roots below ground were still afire, smouldering in the ground. Under the house would also be an issue, I think it would be hard to test such conditions in a naturalistic way.

    T
     
  16. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Jana

    As usual you have brought to this forum exceptionally unenlightened self indulgent stupidity.

    You have, however, added to your usually repertoire in being exceptionally insulting, then backing it up with repeating the mistake after having your error politely pointed out.
    Jana please just fuck off. And shut your arrogant american mouth. I apologise to everyone else for these words, but I believe that they are less insulting than the ones which Jana has written.
     
  17. Noz

    Noz Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Apparently, the survival rates of people in Tasmania who experienced massive fires was best if they lived in a white wooden home.
    Don't believe me?
    Check out the free audio of Bill Mollison at the bottom of this page
    https://www.permacultureplants.net/Audio/audio.htm
    go figure!
    Still, it fits with my idea that we should be able to use low emission building materials.

    All up, earthworks seem to be the way to go if you want a home surrounded by forest.
     
  18. Noz

    Noz Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    I've just come onto this forum and noticed that there is a big debate over using the abbreviated form of the word Aboriginal. As this person is from Colorado, you should be able to simply inform her that this particular abbreviation is considered offensive. I understand that everyone is upset and you should try to bear in the mind that the intention was not to be offensive, but rather to honour the indigenous wisdom.

    To expect someone from overseas to know each tribe's name is probably unrealistic. It is enough to explain, gently, what is considered to be polite. And to set an example yourself by avoiding offensive terms or attacks on a person's culture or location.
     
  19. Ice Czar

    Ice Czar Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Boulder is more like a separate planet actually (I grew up there)
    and you would think the first hint might have took, but then you can never tell
    a wet fish upside the head might be more effective :p


    how effective an earth house would be could be reasonably ascertained in this day and age
    a parameter of the energy its attempting to absorb vs its thermal mass vs time
    and a windowless "storm cellar" with fire door and oxygen

    as a child being an Army brat I spent some time in Tornado alley, one of the few areas that possess a reasonable human response to extreme events. Storm Cellars where almost a prerequisite. The Wizard of Oz had it pretty well nailed with the root cellar or other subterranean reinforced shelter.

    It might be more a function of the frequency, ferocity and random nature of tornadoes, with no human intervention possible that led to them being taken more seriously
     
  20. ppp

    ppp Junior Member

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    Re: Fires, Science, Learning, Design

    Noz

    The error WAS politely pointed out:
    "and you don't use the abreviation it is offensive to Aboriginal people"

    and then she continued to use the term.
     

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