Thanksgiving, puerile conflict? No thanks!

Discussion in 'General chat' started by christopher, Nov 24, 2005.

  1. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    I knew that would get a few people to look :lol:

    This is that time of year when Americans celebrate the first welfare system, when Native Americans helped the Pilgrims through the second long winter by introducing turkey and pumpkins to them.

    As befits a bunch of religeous zealots on welfare, they showed their gratitude by killing many of the native people in the following years, and displacing them. But that was yet to come. This event marks the first year the Pilgrims were introduced the concept of Thanksgiving, and is celebrated every year throughout America, by just about everybody, and is marked by the slaughter of millions of turkeys, and followed by a month long blitz of advertisement to get people to buy stuff they don't need for Christmas.

    A vegan friend of mine sent me this, and I just HAD to share it, especially to Tullymoor :love7: who I think will see heself, briefly, in the movie... so this is going out with a shout to the Oz posse, who are moving through spring and into summer, while across the ocean and the equator, in America, millions of people are celebrating the Pilgrims not starving to death 400 some odd years ago, by gorgeing themselves sick and watching football (American foot ball, not "soccer"), getting drunk and having the day that records the highest level of Police responses to spousal abuse.

    Enjoy: https://www.msn.americangreetings.com/di ... um=3081495

    Happy Thanksgiving!

    C
     
  2. sab

    sab Junior Member

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    :lol: poor turkeys. As an Aussie I couldn't figure out what Thanksgiving was all about for a long time.
     
  3. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    "This is that time of year when Americans celebrate the first welfare system, when Native Americans helped the Pilgrims through the second long winter..."

    LOVE IT! Absolutely love that description!

    OTOH, I work at a Native American casino. This weekend, the Natives are blithely picking the pockets of their oppressors. Poetic!

    Sue
     
  4. bazman

    bazman Junior Member

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    I had thankskgiving in a little town west of lincoln nebraska, Beatrice.

    Had it with a large family in granmas house, it's was an interesting day and I learnt a lot about the day. I also pigged out :D

    I worked with a texas lad here for a few years and we put on thanksgiving for him a few times, mushmellow sweet potato bake is a strange dish for sure.

    They were mad on christmas lights and setting up santa displays in the front yards.
     
  5. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    I did wonder briefly what all this fuss was with thanksgiving in the US... Strange how all of these holidays were made in the good old days, yet no new ones get made....
     
  6. SueinWA

    SueinWA Junior Member

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    I shudder to think what the new ones might be based on...

    National Consumer Month!

    Max Out Your Credit Card Day!

    National Round-Up Admiration Day! (FREE coupons from Monsanto!)

    Cut Down a Tree Week! (See if we can break the old record)

    National Kill-A-Prairie Dog Day! (Join us also in the Kill-A-Wolf/Coyote/Bear/Cougar/Raccoon/Opossum Days!)

    Let it alone, Joel -- JUST LET IT ALONE!

    BTW, I work with a very funny Texan... I'm starting to sound like her! :shock:

    Some years back, I drove a limousine in Las Vegas. I picked up a couple from Atlanta, Georgia (one of those southern places). I happened to say the name "Atlanta", and the lady politely corrected me on the pronunciation:

    "Oh, NO, Hon, that's not right. First, take out both T's, then replace the first T with a D... Ad-lana is how we say it. And if you're in a hurry, just say 'Lana!"

    Sue
     
  7. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Even as a vegetarian, I could still see the attraction of a table overflowing with food, turkey, cranberry sauce, moms mashed potatos, stuffing, sweet potato, ice cream and apple pie, coffee for me, brandy for my dad, the family all together to eat and give thanks, watch some football... It sounds sort of nice.

    Bazman, you make me nostalgic..... Lincoln, Nebraska, huh? Sounds home-ee...

    Sue, if you ever get a job at Hallmark, you'd make 'em millions! "National Round Up Admiration Day, (Free Coupons from Monsanto)"? Yer a marketing genius....
     
  8. bjgnome

    bjgnome Junior Member

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    Earth Day is a new one. Only problem is that it hasn't got a compelling hedonistic ritual attached to it yet, except maybe a few thousand people at a concert trashing out Central Park, NYC. I'm only halfway joking. Rituals and tradition have power in them, and we need to learn to use them properly if we are to create true permanent culture. I say we bring back Beltane, now that was a holiday!

    Jonathan
     
  9. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    The Uk is nearly as bad They just celebrated the 400 anversary of the introduction of Suicide Bombers....Apparently what they did to him after he was caught.he still woulda ended up in as many peices..

    Guy Fawkes



    Tezza

    Ps Didnt they send the Pilgrims in the first place
     
  10. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Worse than that, the Orangemen march through Catholic neighborhoods to celibrate the battle of the Boyne in Derry (Ireland) every year, rubbing a defeat of 400 years ago in Catholic noses. It causes riots every year.

    Hows that for a fucked up holiday?

    No, Tezza, Pilgrims left because noone wanted them and they weren't free to practice their proto-fascist interpretation of Christianity... They went to the Americas, most of 'em died, got saved by the native people, killed the native people in droves (later), burned some witches at the stake.... 400 some odd years after that an idiot whose only redeeming factor for most of the people who voted for him is his religeous beliefs has now oozed his dumbass into the white house.
     
  11. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Soundfs Like Its Not A very Nice Pilgrims Progress



    Tezza
     
  12. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Thanksgiving is ENGLISH!!

    Thanksgiving was an English holiday, exported to america with the Pilgrims.

    It was to celebrate the discovery of the Guy Fawkes bomb plot to annihiliate the British Parliament.

    We celebrated Guy Fawkes night in Australia on a regular basis until fireworks were banned in most states.. [EXCEPT THE NT].

    It is also apparent that this time of year is the end of the Northern Hemisphere's production season and time to 'kill the fatted calf' etc with the advent of the cold weather. Most northern temperate societies have an excuse for a big feed at this time of year.

    The Pilgrims took the concept to the New World. Later discrimination of the Pilgrims meant as they fled north into Canada they took the custom with them.

    Cheers Mike
     
  13. Tezza

    Tezza Junior Member

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    Being born in Britain never new that bit

    Hmmmm


    Tezza
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Mike,

    They are not exactly the same holiday, though they are in a similar place in the calendar. Thanksgiving, with its present association with sweet potato, turkey and pumpkin (all new world crops unknown in Europe in the 17th century), was based on Wampaonag harvest celebrations and started in 1621, on the last Thursday of the month of November.

    for more:
    https://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbies/f ... istory.htm
    https://www.historychannel.com/thanksgiving/?233,39
    more on the "first thanksgiving" :
    https://www.plimoth.org/visit/what/exhib ... giving.asp

    Guy Fawkes Day celebrates a botched uprising by Catholics, which occured in November 5th 1605,

    and more on Guy Fawkes day:
    https://www.bonefire.org/guy/
    https://www.infoplease.com/spot/guyfawkes.html

    Christmas is coming, my favorite Christianized post solstice Pagan celebration. Only, um, 30 more shopping days!

    Christopher
     
  15. forest

    forest Junior Member

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    Mike, I have many happy memories of Guy Fawkes night (cracker night) when I was growing up in Sydney. I nearly blew my knee off one year when I knelt on an about to explode double bunger.
     
  16. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Christopher really?

    Christopher,

    Thanks for trying to put me right.

    Interestingly, I can find ELEVEN Google references to support your ''wampaonag'' theory and FIVE MILLION, SIX HUNDRED AND FORTY THOUSAND references to support my contention.

    https://www.google.com.au/search?sourcei ... ng+England

    https://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&r ... ving&meta=

    I was intrigued too that you noticed the disparity in the date. I also note that to support your contention the ''wampaonag'' must have used the Gregorian Calendar to keep track of their holiday which is ''on the last Thursday in October''.

    Even your date contention is moot due to confusion over the changeover from the Julian Calendar to the Gregorian Calendar.

    ''The legal code of the United States does not specify an official national calendar. Use of the Gregorian calendar in the United States stems from an Act of Parliament of the United Kingdom in 1751, which specified use of the Gregorian calendar in England and its colonies. However, its adoption in the United Kingdom and other countries was fraught with confusion, controversy, and even violence (Bates, 1952; Gingerich, 1983; Hoskin, 1983). It also had a deeper cultural impact through the disruption of traditional festivals and calendrical practices (MacNeill, 1982).''

    Christopher, it is the same holiday, just that it has been adopted by the US and certainly has been americanised and its historical origins forgotten by some.

    Interestingly, Easter [Good Friday] is also celebrated on different dates by different christian churches but by being 7 days apart it doesnt make it different.

    Hope this clears up your confusion.

    Cheers Mike
     
  17. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Mike,

    Thanks for that. I entered in google First Thanksgiving and got the Thanksgiving references I cited. I see you googled Thanksgiving England to get yours. The holiday I was discussing was the one with the turkeys, yam, sweet potato, etc, which is either an American holiday or an American intepretation of a holiday that because of its association with new world foods might (maybe!) be considered distinct.

    From your google search: https://abcnews.go.com/US/Thanksgiving/story?id=1337047 which talks about the Wampanoags :

    I see there is room for disagreement on this, and I admit most of the sources, like the History Channel, are, after all, American, and would like to see a uniquely American holiday where perhaps there isn't one.

    See for the entries I found I googled: https://www.google.com/search?client=saf ... 8&oe=UTF-8
    and found:
    https://www.plimoth.org/visit/what/ among others you have already seen.

    I got 44,800,000 results from google, more than the 5,640,000 you found, but since I only read the first entries, which suggested that it was a Native American harvest celebration, which is what we were taught in school, my opinion is based on a limited amount of information. I could be wrong, and there could be a nationalistic bias in those sources!

    You may be right!

    Best,

    C
     
  18. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Hiya Forest,

    Yes, same here when i was a cracker night was huge. Aussie John Williamson has a beatiful song about cracker night which i recently listened to again.

    The Northern Territory celebrates Territory Day on the First of July but each year there seems to be less & less available.

    No rockets or bungers any more. *sniff* Cracker night was such a civilised way of emptying a town of its cat population... :D

    Cheers

    Mike
     
  19. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    Now Pw Cw and Piper, you two play nicely together, ya hear??

    I'll have to give you both a smack around the arse soon! :bootyshake:
     
  20. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Tullymoor (D)

    Is that a promise :bootyshake: ?

    Pw Cw
     

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