aquaponics triponics invention

Discussion in 'Planting, growing, nurturing Plants' started by baleboy, Sep 1, 2005.

  1. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    i was SO interested in the aquaponics idea i went and visited a bunch of sites

    then i had a BRAIN WAVE !!!!

    is is possile to stacked this system with another layer with out adding too much more work or complexity?

    how about CHICKENS!!!

    you feed the chickens your food scraps vegie waste like usual

    THEN at night they nest in a box with a open wire mesh base above the fish (i saw this in a permaculture book once )

    their droppings would feed the fish and then the rest happens as as per aquaponics usual: fish water to plants, plants grow, filter water water back to fish
    that means you could add another food source to the system eggs and chicken if your not a vegetarian
    the chickens would keep the greenhouse a little warmer at night and
    if your greenhouse had a soil floor they could live under and around the tanks
    based on the amount of chickens you have nesting above the water each night you would be able to get an even dose of food for the fish

    if the fish were too small you could have the box half hanging over the water and half over a WORM FARM......you could call it quadponics, man (ok lets not get too carried away )

    I call it : TRIPONICS!!!!! da daaaa :D !!!

    would it work ?? :?:

    what are you thoughts my friends?? :oops: :D[/u]
     
  2. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Now thats thinking permaculture style.

    I don't know if the chook poo would hold together well for feed for a lot of fish, but there are a few fish species which filter algae from the water for feed. Chooks poo in water, algae grows because of extra nutrients, fish
    filter algae as food.

    Green water tank culture, there are some interesting websites which deal with this subject. It's also used as a method for treating sewage and effluent from piggeries and dairies etc, tanks of nutrient rich water with algae growing, carp or tilapia or whichever fish filtering the algae, then harvest the fish.. The first of a number of stages of water treatment which removes a large amount of nutrient.

    Another idea for fish species which don't use algae for food, is rabbits. Many omniverous fish species will eat rabbit poo pellets, rabbit cages
    above the tank with a constant supply of feed gradually fed to the fish.. Hot meals tooo.... And rabbits breed like rabbits and don't taste to bad.

    Chooks might be a problem if they can get into gravel growbeds, with their digging, though something like small feather foot bantams or
    quails would be usefull cleaning out pests and scraps after harvesting a crop from the growbed.

    The worm farm is a great ddition to any system, fish love them too....

    Some people do get a little iffy about the idea of the manure going into grow beds or the fish tank water, then being pumped up to the
    veggie beds you can possibly run into problems with e-coli etc.

    Keep it up baleboy
    :)
     
  3. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Okay, Baleboy and Earthbound Joel (who is my favorite nominee for Nobel Prize in Groovy Things that Could Save The Earth As We Know It), you got me thinking, and I'm gonna start stringing concepts together here that may or may not work, could be rearranged, etc, so bear with me...

    A few months ago I got fixated on spirulina in much the same way I am with aquaponics right now, and it has remained in our system design for the pond based aquaculture system since then.

    It all started when we traded two small Muscovy ducks for one Rhode Island Red rooster with some friends. One of the two ducks we traded was the runt of the litter, a little itty bitty bird that was half the size of the other birds. The other duck we traded was eaten by a boa, leaving the poor little runt all on its own with all of their mean chooks.

    They go on an annual trip up to the US, and feeling sorry for the poor lonely duck asked us to mind it for them here while they were away. When they dropped the duck off we saw the itty bitty duck, she was now HUGE. Jacob and Kelly feed their birds layer ration, which is industrial chook food, very high in protein, and makes birds grow fast and lay lots of eggs. It "forces" the birds to lay, which is not so good for their health, but makes good economic sense if you run a wildlife research station, as they do, 10 kilometers of bad road from the good road, which ia another 60 kilometers from town. They have eggs of the same quality as they would if they bought them in town, agro-industrial, but they are fresh.

    Dawn and I were blown away. The runt was now bigger than all of her brothers and sisters that had stayed with us. We started thinking of ways to boost all of their protein intake, without buying any feed (we don't buy any feed for them for a few reasons, one of them being the logistics of hauling material into our farm, three kilometers from the road, and we buy very little food for ourselves).

    We feed our chooks and ducks things like corn, which we grow, wood lice, whose nests we bring to their run, veggie scraps, bananas, boiled breadnut, overripe plantain, partially defatted coconut meat (byproduct of coconut oil production) etc, etc.

    They are in pens until noon most days, (so they lay all their eggs in their boxes, instead of little piles off in the bananas), and the free range all afternoon, eating grass, leaves, bugs, more bugs and the occasional bug. Scorpions, ants, spiders, beetles, grubs, woodlice, centipededes, etc, they chow them down. If we get an army ant invasion, long sweeping fronts of horrible biting ants followed by seemingly endless trainls of ants, the birds walk around the fron, eating like crazy, until they get bitten too much, bored or full. This usually results in a subsequent spike in egg production. They get lots of protein from insects...

    We tried various ways of increasing protein levels in their diet. We raised maggots last month, for eample, in our excess avocado, which helped boost protein, but avo season is now tapering off, and the practice wasmanky and a bit disgusting. We started collecting termite nests more agressively, but that is not going to last.

    In a flash >flash
     
  4. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    I am following this thread with great interest :D

    but at this stage have nothing to contribute

    Christopher can you tell us more about how to grow spirulina ?we still have our big useless algae infested big pond ( 10.5m x6.6m x 1.2m deep ) we have decided it is too too big for us to fit into aquaponics at this stage

    I wonder if we could grow spirulina in it ?

    also water hyacinths would have promise tp grow for composting but I know they are a weed here and wouldnt know where to get some

    frosty
     
  5. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Hi Frosty,

    Well, spirulina is not that hard to grow, or so I am told, but has a substantial start up cost, which has been a barrier to me. We have been waiting until I can figure out how to do it where the components needed for spirulina are multifunctional, that the spirulina production is complimentary to something else we are doing.

    For your pond, short answer is "maybe". You could grow spirulina, but it needs stirred twice a day. You could, but yopu have to be careful other, toxic algae do not grow in with your spirulina. So, yes you could, maybe, but there are problems to watch out for.

    I have not done either spirulina or aquaponics, but am very interested in both of these activities(like so many things in my life). I think they both offer many wonderful possibilities for calorie production on a small space. I think that spirulina might be an ideal component in, or adjunct to an aquaponics system.

    Certainly aquaponics and spirulina are both water management intensive technologies, with pumps and containers, and both need a roof that allows sunlight through, either fiberglass roofinf material, plastic, glass, something that is light transmitting but waterproof.

    However, while my armchair enthusiasm knows no bounds, and I believe that within the next year we will have a pond here, (and IF we can get the funding we are looking for, the aquaponics system ), I am completely inexperienced in both of these technologies. We are on very limited funding, and we have other prioroties in the pipeline ahead of this.

    Southern France looks like hotbed of spirulina activity. My mom lives there, and the next time I go over, probably in a few years (2-3), I am going to contact all of the spirulina folks. I wish I had caught the spirulina bug before my last trip!

    A good source for information on spirulia production: https://www.spirulinasource.com/microjourdan.html
    A link off of that same page which has more info:
    Link : https://www.spirulinasource.com/microfarms.html

    Not alot is available on line about spirulina small scal home production, though, and most of it is old. Check, from 1981: https://www.motherearthnews.com/top_arti ... the_Future

    We have funding for some ponds, which we will do next Februay or March. As soon as that is done, I am going to work on the aquaponics, as I think that has so much promise, is extremely attractive (important to us for continued funding), has so much to offer small producers (in line with what we are trying to do, more culturally acceptable food production: fish and veggies, on the one hand, and, yummmm, pond scum on the other, hmm.....) and, I'll make a small confession, I find aquaponics sort of techno-sexy, more so than spirulina, which also has its arousing qualities.

    Aquaponics is so cool. The emoticons think so :wav: :wav: :wav: :wav: :wav:

    As far as water hyacinth, it seems to be around in slow moving water everywhere in the tropics. I have seen it used as pig feed in Costa Rica, and in Venezeula they use it for mulch, or, chopped up and dried as fish feed. I think a pond of the size you describe could be managed for hyacinth production, and would be simple to control against becoming a pest ny virtue of its limited size.

    The only problem I have heard of with pond based spirulina is the risk of contamination with other (wild) algae that are toxic(?!!!!?!!!), so we must be very careful using this as a food source. I think that it is not an issue in controlled cultivation, ie, tanks, pools, vats, whatever.

    Some inspirational factoids about spirulina (taken from :https://www.chlorellafactor.com/):

    High-quality complete protein that is more dense and more digestible than any animal-derived protein. (Chlorella is 58% protein.)
    All the known B vitamins, including vitamin B12 which is almost never found in plants.
    Vitamin C.
    Vitamin E.
    Macrominerals: calcium, magnesium, zinc, potassium and many more.
    Trace minerals.
    Omega-3 fatty acids including GLA.
    Mucopolysaccharides.
    Beta-carotene.
    Nucleic acids (RNA & DNA).
    Chlorophyll.
     
  6. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    Christopher,

    A couple of things darls.....

    1/ you are about the coolest person I've never met. :supz:
    2/ did you name the pig after the ***** at the chocolate company?Wasn't his name Gregor????? :shock:
    3/ I think you should send Earthbound Joel the "scary letter" and get him over there asap, you two'd be unstoppable. :D :D
    4/ I think baleboy should get the scary letter too...he's an ideas man!
    :scratch:
    5/ That's all for now :)
    6/ Just thought...IF an Aussie went over there maybe they could write about their experience/s for a mag...Grass Roots, Earth Garden, Re New...one of those, and just maybe recoup some of their airfare??
     
  7. baleboy

    baleboy Junior Member

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    things move fast around here

    :shock: cricky guys i go away for one day and now were talking decaponics !!!!!

    i love it when a bunch of ideas people get together with a similar passion
    its unreal to hear all of your suggestions in a few more days , who knows .... world peace !!!

    i didnt realise spirulina was so rich in protien

    i had a look at one of the site you put on christopher

    it does look a little fiddly to do but that setup doesnt look to techno to me
    his tanks didnot seem to be totally hygene white room lab style

    i guess the only problem i see with the aquaponics is the problem of feeding the fish with bought imported food
    we need a way to close the loop naturally with out more work to the operator

    i know this is impossible but how can you make it more accessible simple efficient and user friendly. forest can do it so we might be able to come a little closer
    you dont just want another system that is so complex and human dependant that nobody bothers
    i think aquaponics is a great system with a lot of promise i am looking for ways to make it more productive without the humans doing the work .....like chickens preparing a vegie patch instead of you digging kind of thing

    so what have we got with aquaponics as far as it goes:::

    we have healthy veggies
    lots of great fish
    very little water wastage (which can be replaced by the glasshouse catchment water anyway )

    the needs we have are ::: how do we find solution permaculturally for these ones


    how to move the water around with out using too much power wind mill, solar pump??
    how to reduce the cost of the green house ...do you need one? could you have an over flow outlet near the top of the tank thatgoes to the water of the roof tank?

    the cost of the tanks ?i was thinking of a hole in the ground lined with a recycled truck tarp these are thrown away regularly by transport companes the grow beds could just be timber frames with the tarps slung inside

    a source of high nutrition organic fish food
    this is where i am stuck what makes up a good diet for fish that gets fast growth with out compromiseing the health quality or taste of the fish and is readily available in a backyard ???

    well.....i know fish do eat

    insects (which will happily breed in food scraps ..... how many would you need though ???

    fish eat algae (is this possible to breed in the same tank as the fish or do you need another costly tank and more work?? which fish eat algae ??/ are these the fish you want to eat ?? if not then the algae question is a good idea but not for aquaponics

    fish eat water plants again could you grow these enough in the tank would the fish just eat them to nothing ?? would they take the nutrient out of the water yhat you want for your veggies

    what else do fish eat :

    day old bread from the local baker ?

    could you grow something in your back yard to feed them ?

    what do you think guys thinking caps on!! :?
     
  8. Ichsani

    Ichsani Junior Member

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    Hello!

    I'm so impressed by all of the ideas bouncing around! 8) 8) 8) 8)

    Christopher,I love the mexican wave emoticons!!
    You're very right about potentially toxic bacteria.... thats what happens with fish kills, water that has too much free nutrient=algae blooms which may=toxins, just depends on the microbes. The overall process is called 'eutrophication' and a good google should yeild more info on the process if interested.

    Hi Frosty. how are you going with your soil, have you seen any effects from the applications yet? please carefully consider growing spirulina for human consumption in your pond, if the pond is in contact with soil, birds, (esp bird poo) etc etc AND the water is 'fertilised' there is no way to be sure that there's not going to be a outbreak of pathogens (ie coliforms, Escherdia, Giardia). Maybe stick to vats if you want to eat it directly? That way you have control over what goes in. (I posted some stuff about making vat cultures of microbes for soil conditioning to baleboy(different but similar), in the 'rock dust for soil conditioning' thread if anyone is interested.)

    it would be OK to feed to animals though, as their guts are different to ours (seriously!), and those farmers that Christopher mentioned sound like they've been doing it for ages.

    I'll try to chase up a reference for some guys in Oz who are into 'natural aquaponics', all I remember is that they were comercially raising fish, using algae, and got to skip the conventional feed and all its inherient problems (conventional commercial farm fishing is quite gross, and uses lots of antibiotics to stop infection...just like weeds and the monocultural farmer....)

    All power to all of you :hello1: :thumbright: (there are some really cool emoticons here!)

    Oh and Baleboy, this emoticon is for you :eek:ccasion5: and your 'brewing'.

    Ichsani
     
  9. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    My Dear Tullymoor,

    Be careful, my head might swell up, and I'll become difficult to deal with....

    Thank you for those very generous words.

    You are great, especially to be so kind as to say such nice things about me, which make me feel so wonderful. I have a big, big, big smile, feeling very good about myself and the world right about now! :D

    I have been pretty isolated, except for my job and the occasional trip to somewhere interesting (my job, again). I have been farming here since 1988, accumulating information, information not many people are interested in, (Rainbow Farmer knows what I mean by relatives rolling their eyes and yawning when they hear us start on some of these sorts of things,) that has value to the right people, and I am loving that maybe I can be useful to this larger community that this forum makes possible.

    I am also loving what I am learning here, and I am so-o-o-o excited about things that are coming from this. I am learning so much, and I love hearing about what everyone is doing.

    Richard in Maui sent me some seed for passion fruit, (thank you, thank you, thank you....) which we had a few years ago, but a volunteer armed with a machete and a woefully inadequate knowledge base of plants pruned it out of our gene pool in a frenzy of "cleaning". Through this forum, and the kindness of Richard, we are on our way back towards having the passiflora edulis!

    Through this forum, I was introduced to Joels absolutely hands down BRILLIANT set up (hey, emoticons, do the wave! :wav: ). My head is still spinning with what a clever idea that is, how it neatly bypasses many limiting factors for plants here (excessive rainfall, nematodes, poor soil....etc), and the overall efficiency of calories, wow!

    If I can share anything with anyone here, then my participation is a valid exchange, because I am getting so much from my involvement with this larger community, which includes everyone.

    We would love to have anyone visit from Australia, and, conversely, I have always wanted to go there.

    Hmmm.. yes..... Eeeek. I have been discovered. Yes, yes, it's true, sadly, but the ***** that I suggested the chocolate company hire, the ***** who had me fired from a job I loved, the ***** who dismantled our effective extension program of farmers who had been trained in biodiversity management and replaced them with mediocre farmers and butt licking yes men is, in fact, named Gregor :snorting: . And as much as I would love to say that it was a coincidence that our pig had the same name as he has :angel9: , noone would believe me. So, I confess, I confess, itts true, I did name our pig after him. Terribly mature of me, I know. :lol:

    It felt good, bringing a bucket of slop down to Gregor :snorting: in his decrepit little pen three times a day, shoveling Gregors :snorting: manure around, and I was a bit sad when they carried poor Gregor :snorting: away in preparation for a big corn planting event for about 20 men, to be hacked into pieces, boiled, consumed and excreted all over Columbia village :twisted: . Like I said, I am terribly mature....

    Naming the pig after Gregor :snorting: wasn't nice. I know that, and I am trying to improve, to become a kinder and gentler human being. That poor pig didn't deserve the name.... :snorting: :snorting: :snorting:

    The scary letter, Joel and Baleboy, is the third post at
    https://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=578
    It explains a bit of what we are doing, and what we expect of volunteers. I know that you are both probably very busy, but, if you ever make it here, we will make your visit very interesting!

    I would love it if Joel came here. I am a wee bit intimidated by the actual assembly of an Aquaponics system. Having a world renowned, award winning ( Maya Mountain Research Farm 2005 Award for Innovative Permaculture Design) Aquaponics system ( :wav: ) designer here would be great!

    SO, Baleboy, we are one short of decaponics. Perhaps if we put a solar heated hot tub as the preconditioner of the water for the tanks....

    Hrumph, yes... fish feed: spirulina works. I see the spirulina somehow next to the aquaponics system.... still don't know where, but, I am with you, I don't want to buy food for the fish, I want to move nutrients from someother part of the farm....

    If I lived near a bakery, the bread would be a good option, but I don't. It would be good for you, though. I do live "near" a rice mill, so quarter grain rice, and rice bran are the only off farm ag byproducts that I can think of, so far....

    We have perpetual excess of banana, which the chooks love. Perhaps the fish would like it, too?

    We also have coco, cassava and yam in abundance, so, perhaps the fish could eat that, but the banana, the cassava, coco yam (like taro) and yam yam are all pretty starchy, so protein...

    We grow our own variety of open pollinated purple corn, I posted about it so will spare you the details here.. but the weeveily corn we feed to the chickens, and the non weevily corn we eat. Perhaps the weevily corn (non palateble for humans, but increased protein to carb ratio and suitable for chooks, ducks and perhaps fishies) which we mostly feed to the birds could go to the fish instead? Maybe some of it?

    Insects would work, but we have been feeding our insects to the chooks, by placing them in the chookery (okay, Aussies, I know, I know, not a real word, "chookery" but I like it :lol: , and maybe you can all start using it in conversation, and we cn make it a real, respectable, Aussie word, "Hey, mate, good onya, hows the chooks at the chookery, crikey..." (apologies all around!)....). We have tried termite nests, which would work wonderfully for the fish, but we would have to fins a good source for the chickens. Maggots raised in pre compost would work, but be a bit labour intensive.

    Worms... worms would work well, when, we wonder, while wacky willing workers, (wonderful), were walking wherever, whenever (well! We never!), whatever water or weather.

    Lets start over again, shall we? Worms would work well. They are high protein, wonderful composters/soil conditioners, and I think that, if given a suitable source of food on site, represent a significant part of the "answer" to the problem of sourcing food on farm.

    Water hyacinth, too, represents a good source of food, if the fish species in question eat them. Not all will. The hyacinth needs dried, and chopped.

    A biogas plant with the outlet going through a water hyacinth growing canal would remove much of the nutrients still in the water, enabling you to pass them on to the fish (or goats, or for use as mulch, chook feed, ....).

    On to tanks. We would probably try the steel tanks Joel has built. They are not that expensive, and we know they work. Also, digging here has problems. Our soils are fairly shallow, and then you hit shale.

    Additionally, most of our 70 acres of land is hilly. We need to put the whole shebang in one flat area, which there are quite a few of, but any flat area on the land is either:
    1 flood plain, not suitable because the fishies would abscond in the first flood, and our tanks might get washed away.
    2 an ancient Maya plaza or house site, which we can't dig into (our farm is straddled by the ruins of Uxbenton, with a small pyramid/temple up the hill, with wonderful views)
    3 Hill top or ridge top, which puts the whole set up up the hill from where we want to have it..

    So we would probably put it on a plaza near our house, at similar elevation, so we could tie it in to the water system to over there. So tanks it is. The steel tanks look strong enough for the job.

    Coversely, if one wanted to buy a liner (there aren't good alternatives here, so we have researched pondliners for our as yet, like so many things we need done, unbuilt, ponds), they should look at: https://www.pondliner.com/EPDM.htm which gives some info about pond liners using a fish friendly EDPM. That might be cheap enough to warrant using, and there are no toxic leachants.

    For those of us off grid (beyond the mains), a suitable power system to run the pumps, aerators (if they are needed) etc, would need to be designed, purchased and installed, all of which would add significantly to the cost of the system. However, I am of the mind that money spent on infrastructure is ALWAYS money well spent, especially if they get good returns in calories, saleables, avoided costs, avoided labor or energy expenditure, etc, so perhaps I do without ice cream in town for a few years.... This also depends on if the money is available....

    That part of the system needs good thought. It might be possible to do it with smaller pumps than Joel has, but if pumping on a regular schedule is needed, then it would need to be a battery based system instead of a cheaper solar direct system. Also, it would be best, me thinks, to have it on this plaza that is sheltered from the wind, which rules out a wind turbine...

    Ichsani, you raise good points about toxicity. I would definitely be careful, especially if the algae were for human consumption. I am interested in learning more to avoid that, and will be doing some research via google as you suggested.

    Tullymoor, again, thank you for your kind words. They made me feel very nice. :D

    Anyway, this is all very exciting for me, and I anticipate building something around the central aquaponics system :wav: which is the most exciting thing I have heard of, ever!

    I am going to draw up a plan showing relation ships, nutrient cycling, etc between components, then I will try to figure a way to get it loaded here, or transcribe relation ships into words.

    Thanks everyone for your enthusiasm. This is fun!

    Chricstopher
     
  10. frosty

    frosty Junior Member

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    HI everyone

    Ichani we havent seen any results from our soil minerals yet but are still hopeful ....... havent had a lot of rain to wash them in still hoping for more before resorting to spinkling

    thespirulina thing sounds too comlicated and if it needs a roof over it that is too expensive over the big pond because it has to span 6 metres

    a few thoughts on the aquaponics

    for the covering what about a tunnel house type structure made of 30mm pipe with plastic - like they use here for hydopinic tomotoes ....... they paint the plastic with whjitewash in summer so it doesnt get too hot in there - then come winter rains it washes off

    we bought an old tunnel house last year and use it with bird mesh as a fruit tree "house"

    I think I know where I can another one :wink: but we wouldn't use paint we would change the covering to 50% shade cloth in summer

    also christopher why not use the slope to gravity the water back to the fish tank ? I cant see any reason why there could be two separate "buildings" I am still not sure why it all needs to be covered anyway :? Joel ?

    but then as you say wind would not be good ........ if we use the tunnel house it would have sides as well as a roof anyway

    I wonder what joel does in summer with the poly roof ? does it get too hot ? surely the weather isnt that different down there ! we have a roof like that on our sun room and it gets up to 40C in there on a balmy summers day ! we have also thought of putting the plants in there too and then having a waterfall off the verahdah down into a new fish pond 8)

    we would use a pond liner ......... if you buy "bulk" it is reasonable priced - for 8m wide it is $30 per linial metre ......... it is quite easy to instal in small ponds

    anyway my thought for now

    regards
    frosty
     
  11. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Wow, things are moving here so quickly... I feel like I hardly have time to go out to a friends farm today because theres so much I want to respond to here on the group....

    Christoper your starting to make me blush. :oops: Hey, I didn't come up with the idea in the first place. Like yourself I just realised what a fantastic idea it was and worked with it from there. But thankyou so much for your kind words..... Oh and the award, I think you should make it only available on the condition that I come and pick it up one day, there would be a perfect way for me to give up the dreaded weed as well... I'd probably be off trapsing through the jungle looking for the farmer who makes his own puros.. :dontknow: :lol:

    Damn it, I really must run, I'll work on responces later...
     
  12. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Frosty,

    I think we wouldhave to elevate the tank, as Joel does, with the grow beds above the tanks (in height, not directly above the tanks), but I think a level spot would make building foundations for the setup easier, and easier to service the system.

    All of the spirulina set ups I have read about (the smaller ones, not the huge ones) are covered, and Joels system is covered, too. I know with the rain we get here (
     
  13. earthbound

    earthbound Junior Member

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    Phew.... lots of reading involved around here lately.. :book:

    Theres a fair amount of research going on in Australia, and I imagine the rest of the world at the moment trying to find alternative feed for aquaculture and they are have some success. Lupins are a great suplimental fish feed and a lot of research has gone into it https://www.fish.wa.gov.au/docs/pub/ResL ... x.php?0306

    Of course any sort of grubs and bugs are potentialy good for feeding to fish as well, slaters, maggots, weavils, anything with high protien levels. I wonder if anyone has researched feeding bananas to fish...... :shock:
    Any excesses of crops can be used to feed bugs and worms which then become valuable feed sources. Someone in Hawaii was researching different bugs but I'm not sure how far he got.

    Both fish tanks and grow beds can be at any height really, I can be useful to have the fish tank burried below ground, or a hole in the ground as frosty suggested. This helps to keep temperatures at a more constant level and save you the cost of a tank, infact the whole thing could be built this way with grow beds being lined depressions in the ground, this would be a very cheap way of building a system. Parrallel raceways or channels dug out from the pond on a slight slope and lined with plastic and filled with gravel, pump the water out to the far end of the gravel filled channel, letting it flow back along through the gravel to the fish pond.

    This could lead to some problems with flooding though. If a blockage occurs somewhere in the gravel due to a build up of roots, the water can't return to the fish tank, and would flood out over the ground, Problem...!

    The nice thing about having growbeds raised up off the ground is the comortable working height, no bending.... :hello1:

    Christopher, you wanted another thing to add to make it a Deka..... Shellfish and/or crustaceans.... You have to be carefull with some fresh water mussels as part of their life cycle can involve a larval form where they live in the gills of fish as a parasite, which wouldn't be to good for your fish.. Crayfish are a good thing though, for tropical areas the redclaw is very popular. Many systems have a settling tank to remove solids, incorporated into the system between the fish tank and the grow beds. This can be doubled up as a settling tank and crustacean tank, which could also have other water plants in it Water hyacinth and duck weed.

    One of the setbacks with crayfish are their requirement for area, they only live on the bottom of the tank and as such you can only fit so many in. But I have wondered about stacking them in a tank, much like one of those bought worm farms, that way your doubling your potential growing area with each new layer. This would also make harvesting a breeze...

    The cover or greenhouse over the top of a system is not so essential, it all depends on your system design. My main system relies on having a fairly constant water level for the pumps to turn off and on as they cycle through pumping and draining but I have seen many other system designs which don't need this.
    https://rps.uvi.edu/AES/Aquaculture/aqua ... stems.html

    Paypal doesn't work to Belize? Spew.... :puke: I'll write to you offboard Christopher.

    Joel
     
  14. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Joel Earthbound,

    Thanks for the message. I wrote you back.

    If noone has done research on bananas on fish, I see a gap where MMRF can step in to fill the niche. We can do it, once we have fish. :)

    I like the pictures of your set up more than a sunken system as it eliminates potential problems from heavy rains, as well as keeps it up high, where thee tanks would be easier to work on.

    Okay, with the addition of yabbies (yabbies is right, right?) in the settling tank, this adds more options... we have the capability to somehow make the aquaponics system :wav: into a decaponics system. I still haven't figured out where all the components fit in relation to one another... which will take some puzzling. I will post here when I get around to doing that diagram....

    Nice system on that link you posted that shows it in the open, I still think, with the rain and wind we get, that a covered system would be a great advantage.

    Paypal won't work for us. I have been told that because of a heightened risk of fraud from Belize and certain other countries, wonderful places like Sudan, Sierra Leon and Liberia, for example, we have been blacklisted, which is pathetic. Belize only has 250,000 people in the whole country, and there just can't be that much scamming going on using Visa cards from Belize. I know Amazon.com works here. Perhaps you could arrange for Amazon to sell it for you?

    Thanks for being so inspirational! I am tired, but tomorrow I work on my diagram!

    Dude, you rock :supz: :supz:

    Christopher

    And Baleboy, thanks for opening the door to complexing! Things are getting very interesting!
     
  15. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Joel and Baleboy,

    Okay, can't sleep, tired, but too much internal dialog. Computer, satellite internet back on. Got to get this down. So worked on this diagram, which I can't load... so I will write it out here. Moving forward towards a larger integrated system, and, of course, subject to reality checks that these relationships are possible (help me here if anyone knows a reason any of these relationships can't work), here is a potential decaponics system....

    Joel, as per your wonderful advice, I have installed a theoretical yabbie tank for presettling before the fish pond, mostly to push us firmly into the realms of decaponics :lol: :lol: . I considered making chooks and ducks two seperate components to make it decaponics before the yabbie idea, but that would be cheating, right?

    The Aquaponics system ( :wav: ) is the hub, with chooks and ducks, goats, rabbits external, but tied in by nutrient flows, mostly as manure to biogas plant, to worms and fish direct (and worms to fish) and the spirulina, fish byproducts, excess milk and worms going to the chooks/ducks, and excess veggies out to worms, goats, ducks and chooks.

    Follow the numbers. I hope this makes sense: :?

    1 Fish/ nutrient rich water to 6, protein to 8, protein out of system

    2 Goats/ manure to 1, 4 and/or 5. Excess milk to 8. Protein meat/milk, out of system

    3 Rabbits/ manure to 1, 4 and/or 5. Protein out of system

    4 Worms/ worms to 1 and 8, worm castings out of system

    5 Biogas/ slurry to 9, methane out of system

    6 Hydroponic veggies/ Spoiled and excess veggies to 2, 3, 4 and 8, veggies out of system

    7 spirulina/ production to 1, 2, 3 and 8, also out of system. Excess water to 10

    8 Chooks, ducks/ external to system, tied in by nutrients. Manure to 5, Protein in form of eggs and meat out of system.

    9 water hyacinth/ Prefilter, plant matter to 1, 2, 3, 5 and 8, water to 7 and/or 10. Some matter out of system.

    10 Yabbies/ Settling pond, water flow through to 1, protein to 8 and/or out of system.

    So I have defined some potential relationships... how would we physically assemble the components for the easiest flow of nutrients? I am wiped, long day, too wiped to think about stringing all the pieces together more than my diagram below, above, but I look forward to seeing new activity here, and all of y'all in Oz are so much earlier in the day there, so I need to stay up till 1 AM to see the latest. Perhaps I need a 12 step program "Hi, my name is Cwistofa, and I'm a permaculturechatroomaholic..."), admitting you have a problem is the first step towards recovery :lol:

    Now really tired. Going to sleep. I so look forward to reading this tomorrow. I hope it makes sense in the bright light of day :lol: Joel, thank you for this exciting idea. I am getting a lot of fun from it, and thanks for your thoughts Baleboy, and Ichsani, Frosty, and Tullymoor (dearest), for as tired as I am, I am having so much fun. Thanks!

    See you tomorrow!

    Exhaustedly yours,

    Christopher :sleepy1:
     
  16. ~Tullymoor~

    ~Tullymoor~ Junior Member

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    Nothing to add about the stuff you guys have going on here...I got lost ages ago :oops: :oops:
    but Christopher, did you know you need your pics/diagram up loaded to somewhere on the www to display/post them here?
    I use https://www.photobucket.com and there is also https://www.imagecave.com et el
    Hope I'm not telling you something really basic that you already know.... :?
     
  17. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    News to me, Tullymoor (dearest), so thanks for educating me!

    My diagram is a circle with the names of all the components written around it, and arrows showing flows of material. It is written while I was almost passing out, with the occasional jolt of adrenaline at the thought of a new flow, and written in my trade marked handwriting (something like a dyslectic chicken, with a bad hangover, blindfolded, written while in 4 wheel drive on a rutted dirt road....)

    So will need to polish that up a bit, too, now that you have figured out for me how to get it posted.

    But the diagram was good to see the flows for me, to help visualize the way things can relate to each other.

    Anyway, big excitement all around. When I finallly convive my wife to draw it out, (in addition to being super capernter and the REAL farmer in the family, she is a talented art-eest) I will post it.

    Cwistofa
     
  18. murray

    murray Junior Member

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    i've just been contacted by the EAB (emoticon abuse board) ...

    you guys better calm down or i'll have to take action...
     
  19. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    Ouch :shock: , which emoticon was the offending one? :lol: I hope it's not my little buddies, because every time I mention the aquaponics system ( :wav: ) they run out and do the wave. Dangdest thing... absolutely beyond my control...

    Watch... ...aquaponics system ( :wav: ) ... see?

    Or was it the Gregor the pig :snorting: or Gregor the **** :snorting: who had me fired?

    Did I use them too many times when talking about the fish :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: :fish: in the aqiuaponics system :wav: ?

    Please, I beg, I plead, I implore, don't take action :prayer: !

    Tell them to relax, have a cup of coffee :coffee2: or two :coffee: and then check my emoticon use.

    No need for anyone to get upset :bonedemon: and I will try to keep my use of emoticons undercontrol, and not overwork the liitle fellow from here on :salute: m but it is hard when we are talking about the aquaponics system :wav: :lol:

    I definitely don't want anyone to get upset :angel4:

    And, as far as emoticons go, you have some pretty unpleasant ones in there, which I won't even comment on, because I am afraid Tullymore might accidentally use one :lol: . For example, I haven't, and will never use any of the following highly offensive emoticons (those under age, please turn OFF the computer): :
    :3some: :tool: :boxing: :booty: :downtown: :pottytrain4: :pottytrain5: :sign3: :sign10: :sign12: :thefinger: :violent1: :axe: :ANAL: :butthead: :finga: :toimonster: :bootyshake: :la: :cussing: :jerk: :thebirdman: :ANAL: :Hangman: :stfu: :spam2: :spam1: :knob: :withstupid: :puke: because I am a refined, sensitive and very polite person who would never ever use any of that nastiness. :angel12:

    Christopher :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
  20. Penny

    Penny Junior Member

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    aquaponics

    I've been away from the computer for the w/end and come back to all this. You guys are amazing, such fertile minds. Having been up to my place on the w/end to feed marron a couple of thoughts came to mind. Yabbies- (Cherax destructor/albinus) have a tendency to burrow and might cause problems with liners, however marron koonacks and redclaw are less likely to do this or so I have been told. Now to increasing numbers of crayfish. In my dams I use a combination of nets, these are made of material similar to shadecloth and bunched up with a float at the top and a weight at the bottom., provides shelter and hiding spots. Also branches in the ponds. weighted by a rope over the top and a couple of tyres until the branches are waterlogged. With plenty of cover they seem to cohabitate better, less missing claws ect. As long as the food suply is adequate it should give reasonable results. I' starting to get really excited about all these ideas, but Christopher if you are going to present the award I think it should be a ceremony I'll come!!!
     

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