Self sufficiency philosophy

Discussion in 'Designing, building, making and powering your life' started by marsa, Mar 8, 2009.

  1. marsa

    marsa Junior Member

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    Hi all,

    I'm not sure whether I should post this here or to "The big picture"-section so excuse me if this doesn't seem to fit in.

    I found this essay about self sufficiency a while ago but now that it's online also in English, I thought it might provide some interesting insights to this forum. The author is a farmer and a social thinker who has made his living for more than a decade with just 30-50 euros a year in rural Finland. However we do enjoy the freedom ("every man's rights") of collecting mushrooms and berries in the forest no matter who owns the land, which makes living easier than in some other parts of the world. Written somewhat in the spirit of Henry David Thoreau..

    https://www.elonmerkki.net/en/article.html
     
  2. openeyes

    openeyes Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Hi,

    I am only half way through this article - it is an excellent piece - well written and thought through.

    I would be intereted in anyone out there who is living a self sufficent life - without using a lot of oil.

    Is there anyone who is 90% self sufficent in food etc (spend less than $20 per week including soap etc), drives a car/motorbike less than 20km per week, is not connected to council sewage, water or power? Plus don't have a mortgage.

    If you are in the above category then it would be really interesting to hear about your how you achieved it and what land/water/climate you have. And especially how long you have been doing this.

    Now that I think of it how would they afford internet on such a tight budget - well maybe someone knows someone who is doing.
     
  3. ant1

    ant1 Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    is self sufficiency an ideal goal?

    why do people form socieities in the first place?
     
  4. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    We fall into that category except that are connected to the water line but use only a small amount of that water for cooking and dishwashing. The water for our animals and garden comes from the roofs and our stream. Apart from that we live on very little but the internet and telephone are so important to our lives for selling our products, keeping in touch with the world and having fun that they are well worth paying for with real money! :D

    Most of the information about how we live is in our blog.
     
  5. thepoolroom

    thepoolroom Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    That's a question that has a different answer for every individual. Some people don't want to have much to do with others, and are happy living in a remote area with little outside contact. Others crave social contact and feel lost without it.

    I don't think anyone is suggesting self sufficiency is something everyone should strive for. Even people like Jackie French, who wrote a book on self sufficiency, say that being completely self sufficient takes an enormous effort and really isn't ideal. Some level of interdependence within the local community is generally good for everyone, so they can barter, trade, socialise, help each other and receive help when needed.

    Not everyone wants to make all their own soap, honey, milk, wheat/flour/bread, meat, paper, tools, vegies, etc. If you like making soap and I like keeping bees, it makes good sense to swap soap for honey so we're both doing more of what we enjoy and less of what we dislike.

    Most self-sufficiency texts seem to promote "becoming more self-sufficient", rather than "becoming completely self-sufficient".
     
  6. FREE Permaculture

    FREE Permaculture Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    aren't we all self sufficient anyway?
    if you work and pay your bills and buy all your food then aren't you self sufficient?
    if you dont' work but grow your food and sell excess, use the money to buy what you don't grow or make or pay bills
    then that's still self sufficient i think, and when you retire you get a pension, so would self sufficiency then mean you deny payments from the gov't?

    I'm not sure self sufficiency means anything really, living a hermits lifestyle might be very attractive to some but that's not being self sufficient I don't think, still need to pay something, like land rates, doctors, medicine ect,
    in the old days when people didn't grow certain things, they just did without, or went to market with what they did have
    to swap for money to buy what was needed. dunno, i'm even more confused as to what self sufficiency is now.

    what was the difference between sustainable living & self sufficiency again?
     
  7. openeyes

    openeyes Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    I think your right - working and earning money and then paying for your life is self sufficient.

    And why do people associate hermits with Self Sufficiency? Personally I enjoy other peoples company even though I work towards being self sufficient in my daily food etc needs. If my neighbour and I were self sufficient then I might swap something with them but we don't need to. That I think is really the crux of the matter - we are not forced into it.

    If I work in town and have a mortgage and kids etc and then lose my job and am unable to get another job then life has changed and I might find it hard to feed my children. Where as if I support my needs from working the land then I am more in control of my fate - ie I can't lose my job. Of course if I am the only one in my family doing any farm work then if I get sick the family is in strife as well - but usually it is a family effort. And of course we would have stored up extra food as insurance for just this situation.

    And again I can see if a family (where they worked a money payiing job) had a home without a mortgage and saved money for tough times and had a little land so when unemployed they could grow some of their food then a far greater level of security could be achieved as well. But we don't seem to live like this. The current credit (and for that matter the history of credit crisis) does seem to indicate that. So doing it yourself is self enforcing and more in touch (imho) with what keeps us alive.

    If the greater population visited the huge cattle feed lots and poultry houses and how poorly farmers are paid and actually killed some of the animals they ate - we would live in a very different world. Some people don't even know where a potato comes from!

    So living on the land keeps us a little more humble and in touch with reality - imho.
     
  8. openeyes

    openeyes Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Wow. Had a look through your blog which is excellent. Great photography and a real view of what you have been achieving there. I would love to visit France again and if I do would love to come and see your place in action.

    How big is your farm? How much is just for the potager? Does Fabrice have to go far to hunt? I imagine small game is close but do you have large forests near for Boar etc.

    Really very inspiring.

    One last thing - you mentioned that you would feel a little isolated if you did not have the internet. Are you too far from Caussade or other small towns to be connected to people or have a larger group of friends or is part of it to do with language/cultural barriers or just being far from home? My wife and I sold our place last year and are looking to try a more community oriented situation to try and reduce this very issue.

    Keep up the great blog I will be returning regularily to see updates.
     
  9. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Anyone's welcome to visit Openeyes, just tell us you're coming!

    We've just over 100 acres. The potager at the back of the house is about 400²m and we've another where we grow potatoes, food for the pigs and winter vegetables. We've no chickens there so the cabbage family do well! We've also a water supply fed by a stream. I rarely buy veg - but sometimes oranges, bananas and avocados! Fabrice and the his ten or so colleagues hunt just in this village of 1000 hectares. Last year 600 kilos of meat was shared out between 158 residents. We're only 25kms from Bergerac and 25kms from Périgueux - both largish cities - but we only go to the city about 5 times a year to buy computer things, DIY stuff and basic essentials.

    We've got loads of people who visit - mostly neighbours to swop favours or work together on getting in hay or corn and use each other's machines and we've a growing bunch of pals who live nearby and there's always a party somewhere not too far. :D Fabrice and I are both bilingual so language isn't a problem. The problem for me is intellectual stimulation. I love learning, I need to discover new things, I like reading. I like taking photographs and explaining how to do things, I also need to keep my English up, that's where blogging and posting on forums is so useful.

    With the internet I don't need to waste fuel to go anywhere, don't need to shower and change to go out and I can work/do research/chat to friends at any time of the day or night. It's made our lives so much richer. 8)
     
  10. japhy

    japhy Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    I have to say I don't agree with those who say 'self-sufficiency' is merely having a job and providing for yourself through a traditional capitalist economy. That's a strangely literal translation and not what self sufficiency means, which involves a complete reconsideration of that very system, it's long term feasibility, environmental sustainability, and the social frameworks it fosters (eg. unfair trade) Self sufficiency is about freeing oneself from all that in as great a way as possible, taking life responsibility into one's own hands, and appreciating the importance of connection that it all brings with it. Of course, I appreciate the difficulties of all this, and am some ways off myself. Also, I think total self sufficiency is a virtual pipe-dream, that is unless you have an enormous family/willing workforce, and a very modest set of requirements. But a happy medium of producing a nice variety, bartering with neighbours for other stuff, and even a bit of trade for the things we all need, ie. computers could work well.

    Excellent essay, by the way, thanks for posting. My own take on the right balance between mainstream capitalism and self sufficiency is that of bio-regionalism. We should live, work, and trade within our own watersheds where possible, tend the land responsibly, consume foods grown within it, etc. The only way I differ is that bio regionalism encourages the use of native plants and, like most permies, I think those times have probably ceded to a need for useful, productive food crops over all else...
     
  11. Noz

    Noz Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    How many of us are able to provide basic vegies or salads for ourselves on a regular basis, without petro-chemical inputs? At the moment, I feel that self-sufficiency should be viewed in terms of what you are generating within your home environment - food wise. (this isn't considering energy, water etc... not my area of expertise yet) Even if you end up giving the surplus away, this should also count towards self sufficiency! I guess we are building community resilience.

    Wild food maps are another interesting thing that is starting to get popular:)
     
  12. tamo42

    tamo42 New Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Just a thought on the self-sufficiency with or without a job:

    To me, having a job that pays all your bills and such is being sufficient.

    Not needing a job in order to fulfill your needs because you have everything you need for survival on your own property is self-sufficient.
     
  13. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Having everything on site to feed and partly clothe yourself is great but you still need other people to help provide everything you need like health care, shoes, tools, roads, policing, insurance etc. So to be truly self sufficient you either need to produce a surplus or have a job outside of your smallholding to get money to pay for those things.
     
  14. Dalzieldrin

    Dalzieldrin Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    I'm surprised no-one's mentioned this

    'gardenlen' has a essay about the idea of self-sufficiency on his web - worth a read if you're interested
     
  15. Pablito

    Pablito Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Hardworkinghippy,
    your blog is inspirational. I'm only about 6 weeks off starting the real business of building, planning, planting, raising, etc on our 30 acres in Tasmania, and it was beginning to get a bit daunting as it came closer. Your blog has been a real encouragement. Thanks.
     
  16. hardworkinghippy

    hardworkinghippy Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    Pablito,

    Thank you very much for saying that ! :D

    It doesn't seem very long ago since we bought the land and started to build the house, sheds for the animals and make the garden. Now when I wander around it really feels "real" and it's a joy to see our plans and ideas coming to fruition.

    Take one step at a time Pablito, live on your land for a while, get to to know it well and you'll make the best decisions about how to use it. You're so lucky to have this opportunity - I hope you really enjoy it !
     
  17. Ice Czar

    Ice Czar Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    I would disagree unless you personally own the means of production within a stable economic unit

    Distributism

    the idea that self-sufficiency is an individualistic or familial measure IMO constrains it too much
    Id venture a communal definition. Its the insane employment of cheap energy that has broken the historic and world wide communal self sufficiency pattern.

    Now we have large swaths of area that have no means to support their population densities
     
  18. milifestyle

    milifestyle New Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    "Self sufficiency" does not have to refer to the individual or the individuals direct family.

    There can be "Societies" of people who aim to be self sufficient or at least minimise the use of unnecessary things...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish
     
  19. Contadino

    Contadino Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    We fall into that category too. Wimax internet is €15/month, electricity is between €12 and €14/month, and we're off-grid for everything else (sewerage, water, telephone.) I drive into town once or twice a week, which is a 7km round-trip.

    Funny that you mention soap, as that's one of the easiest things to take out of your shopping basket and make yourself.

    I'm in the south of Italy, in what I've just found out is called a 'brittle' landscape (although I haven't yet run the tests to confirm what level we are on the Savory Brittleness Scale.) It's a traditional, if a little extreme, Mediterranean climate, so we're battling against desertification. Dead, scorched, but fertile red clay soil, laid out mostly to olive and almond trees. Our water comes from rainwater harvesting (big, underground tanks), and we'll be grey-water recycling in the next month or two.

    We've been living like this for the last 3-and-a-bit years.

    On a financial note, I'd say that our 'running costs' are well below €20/week. However, our 'capital costs' (for major projects) have been, and are likely to continue to exceed it. For example, when we put in solar HW, it was a one-off cost. This years big capital costs will be a kitchen refurb and a pair of lovely little Sicilian dairy goats (housing & fencing mainly), which we've saved up for.

    On the plus side, there are signs that these capital costs are constraining. For example, when I build my workshop/creamery/storage cellar this autumn it'll be in rammed earth tyres, so the cost will be much lower than the 'conventional' construction than I'd budgeted for. Similarly with the bees - I'd budgeted (many years ago) to buy all the equipment, but in the end I made their hive and just paid for a smock/mask and the swarm.
     
  20. Brown grnthumb

    Brown grnthumb Junior Member

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    Re: Self sufficiency philosophy

    The Amish aren't self-sufficient as a whole even; some go to walmarts and big box stores and they ofcourse buy fabrics, foodwise they probably get all the basics of a western diet; white sugar & white flour and 3/4ths of Amish work in non-agricultural settings now.

    Its depressing esp. when you factor in that many use petro-chemicals and grow gmo corn :(

    Also its the religious belief in plain living and a dislike for things that cause vainity that get them to not want/use unnecessary things. There isn't such thing as a completely self-sufficient sociey, there never has been; people have always traded for foods that weren't around ( Like mountain people in the andes trading for very important dried fish roe taht coastal peoples had). Yes, basics can be met but a society is always looking for ways to minimalize hard labour; like trading for metal tools and pots instead of digging sticks and reed baskets, growing new crops that are less time consuming to process, etc....

    There are individuals and probably small communities that produce everything they need, but really why would they completely isolate themselves. Esp. if they have surpluses that can be bartered or sold?
     

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