permaculture trademark

Discussion in 'Jobs, projects, courses, training, WWOOFing, volun' started by futuredesigner, Dec 9, 2006.

  1. futuredesigner

    futuredesigner Junior Member

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    I have been reading for forum, and it appears that a lot of misinformation is floating regarding permaculture and copyright. I hope the following clarifies the situation.

    Permaculture was a word "coined" by Bill Mollison. It also describes his permaculture curriculum. He quite rightly claimed copyright to it. Bill allows any one who has completed a permaculture course that teaches the knowledge contained in his curriculum to use the same knowledge in his curriculum and pass it on provided it is taught as an intensive 72 hour minimum course. There is no obligation for any teacher to be registered with Bills Permaculture Institute to use the word or teach that particular curriculum. If you do register with Bill he will issue you with his own printed certificates for your students. You may also print your own certificates, and then students may in the future continue to teach Bills curriculum. He does not charge any fee for this right which has been vested to his students. If he withdraws this right, then those affected may rightly claim compensation.

    However, once a word becomes part of the common language it is no longer protected by copyright or trademark rights, so we have today teachers choosing to offer all different types of permaculture curriculums, some known as APT or "approved permaculture training". It is interesting to note that any claim that "approved permaculture training" is a trademark is false, because these words are part of the common language. APT may be a trademark, only if it distinctive in design. Only minor variations in destinctive design are allowed under appropriate legislation. People offering such courses may also be in breach of the trade practices act, because if you do offer such a product, as I understand it must be correct in its description. In other words it must be permaculture, which is a method of design.

    The above information is the opinion of Leo Mahon, Director Permaculture Design Institute Pty Ltd. I am sending a copy direct to Bill Mollison to confirm or clarify my opinion. I shall keep you posted.
     
  2. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    I was under the impression permaculture was an abbreviation for permanent agriculture. PERMA(nent) A(gri) CULTURE?? Which basically meant a self sustaining system that wasn't reliant on outside inputs to maintain its production. :?:
     
  3. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    If as Permaculturists we are going reduce ourselves to competing with each other for status and recognition we may as well throw in the towel right now. Care for the Earth, Care for the People, Share the Surplus.
    APT may not be Bill's idea of an ideal Permaculture curriculum, but despite his appearance as a white haired beared old white man, he isn't actually God. He intentionally set up the Permaculture movement so that it would be self regulating, so that teachers would organically reproduce themselves. So, he can't really complain that they are doing that in a way that he didn't forsee. If doing the official PDC allows us to use the word Permaculture in whatever way we see fit, then so be it.
    The more ways to teach Permaculture design and sustainable life skills the merrier I say. :D
     
  4. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    futuredesigner


    Are you serious? Or this this a generic thing you are posting across the Net?

    If you are referring to this thread https://forums.permaculture.org.au/viewtopic.php?t=3673&highlight=copyright

    I cant see any confusion or misinformation just someone asking reasonable questions and recieving reasonable answers. Maybe I missed something. We were all new once.

    Now just so I get it right. Did Leo Mahon write the post or was he just paraphrased? Does the Permaculture Design Institute have a forum for legal opinions and such?


    [/url]https://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/2000-June/011314.html This is a link, a 6yo one that a...ot *edited to try to tidy up link..oh well
     
  5. Cornonthecob

    Cornonthecob Junior Member

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    Permaculture is just a word....what it stands for has been in exsistance for years untold.

    I wonder if the word will lose meaning as it becomes 'trendy'?
     
  6. futuredesigner

    futuredesigner Junior Member

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    absolutley amazing

    You know I have always maintained the enemy of Permaculture is within and after reading the first few responses my opinion is reinforced.

    My original posting (opinion) merely said any one can use the word permaculture.

    Considering that there are always people new to permaculture it would be good if they knew that curriculums are different.

    There are now only a handful of people in Australia teaching Permaculture who can claim to teach Bill Mollisons Permaculture Curriculum, I am one of them. Bill protects his curriculum for the purpose of consistant education.

    Now how could such basic simple information be spurned. That is all that was said above.

    Regards Leo Mahon
     
  7. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    The enemy of Permaculture is within? That's a bit paranoid Leo. And totally unecessary. Permaculture is supposed to be a positivist approach to our problems. How can it possibly be bad that people are devoting energy to new ways of teaching Permaculture (unless you are heavily invested in the old way?)... :lol:

    Consistency doesn't necessarily mean constantly trotting out the same old bloody stories. Bill would do his legacy a lot more good if he were to gracefully and gratefully allow others to define how they take up the challenges he has identified. He's obviously an exceedingly smart and wise bloke and a massive inspiration to loads of us and has effected a lot of positive change, but that doesn't mean we have to bow at his feet and adore his every word as gospel.

    Having said all that Leo, I don't think anyone has spurned anything you have said. Some might have disagreed, some might have asked for clarification, some might have missed what you are driving at altogether. Noone is spurning you mate. As I have told you elsewhere, we're all in this together!
     
  8. Shack Living

    Shack Living Junior Member

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    Sorry Leo, but I don't see what makes us the enemy of permaculture. Below are three random dictionary definitions for the word "permaculture". It doesnt seem a sacred word to me, just a common goal of sustainability. I am a big fan of Bill Mollison's work, so don't get me wrong.

    per·ma·cul·ture (pûr'mə-kŭl'chər) Pronunciation Key
    n. A system of perennial agriculture emphasizing the use of renewable natural resources and the enrichment of local ecosystems.


    [perma(nent) + (agri)culture.]

    per'ma·cul'tur·ist, per'ma·cul'tur·al·ist n.

    per·ma·cul·ture
    Pronunciation: 'p&r-m&-"k&l-ch&r
    Function: noun
    Etymology: 1permanent + agriculture
    : an agricultural system or method that seeks to integrate human activity with natural surroundings so as to create highly efficient self-sustaining ecosystems


    per·ma·cul·ture (pûrm-klchr)

    n.
    A system of perennial agriculture emphasizing the use of renewable natural resources and the enrichment of local ecosystems.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [perma(nent) + (agri)culture.]
     
  9. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    Oh cool! Definitions of Permaculture. Bill, I am sure, would take umbrage with those dictionary definitions (because the authors of the dictionary hadn't completed the 72 hour curriculum - just kidding :lol: ) because they don't talk about it as a process of design. This is probably the key part of Permaculture that most people who haven't done any training miss, the importance of design. I think it was Corn who said that Permaculture is just a new name for an old thing, sustainability - Bill would definitely have a problem with that - he would probably claim that no society had the benefit of Permaculture design principles, however sustainable their way of life happened to be.
     
  10. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Leo,

    You kicked this thread off with a strawman fallacy. There is NO confusion about permaculture and copyright - only people asking questions. I also cannot remember the issue of trademarks being raised subsequently so it can hardly be described as being subject to 'confusion' either.

    I do find offensive the issue that somehow this forum either spurned you or is 'the enemy within'. It appears you raised a strawman so that you could conveniently hide behind righteous indignation.

    Leo, this is from the PDI website. Has Bill Mollison annointed disciples? If so we need to know who constitutes this 'handful' so we can all get it right. I hope Lawton & Holmgren are on that list.

    What of Bill Mollison's other 30,000 students?

    Leo, you raised these issues but what I can see happening is that now the PERMACULTURE: A Designer’s Manual will become the Bible and only certain people can read it properly.

    Surely someone with a valid Permaculture Design Certificate using the above mentioned reference is teaching an ''approved'' course.

    I do not know who authored this but it seems relevant to my knowledge of Mollison and Permaculture and again it is off the PDI site.

    In light of this thread that comment seems more relevant than ever.

    Cheers

    floot
     
  11. futuredesigner

    futuredesigner Junior Member

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    permaculture curriculum

    Thanks for the mail, always good to get a few new opinions.
    As I understand David Holmgren teaches his own new curriculum.
    Permaculture is new, it is the first "total system science for human settlements" ever written. What ever existed before was segmented recorded knowledge, or living working systems, what we have now is the concept of intelectual property. Do a course with Bill or his conforming students and you may say that you are using his curriculum. Or put your name out and say it is your new curriculum. Some APT courses offer a certificate in Permacuture, when the focus of the content is on say food processing. My only conclusion is that such courses should be correctly named to avoid confusion for Permaculture is "total system design"
    Thanks Leo Mahon
     
  12. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    That is a lot more clear, Leo. I think most reasonable people would actually agree with you.

    For anyone out there who is trying to decide between doing a PDC and the APT, my advice would be, do both! Do the PDC with someone who is well respected and then do get austudy to do the applied stuff.

    Obviously there is no way that a 72 hour course in systems design can give you much of the practical skills necessary to implement the principles involved. It isn't really what Bill's PDC curriculum attempts to do. It is all about ideas. So there is definitely room for a training course that teaches the actual practicalities of things like map making, surveying, animal and plant husbandry (or wifery?), appropriate building, etc etc. Hopefully the APT, which I haven't had the chance to check out, will succeed in creating a lot of really abled designers.
     
  13. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Leo,

    I saw something similar around 1990 when Qantas was offering redundancies. A lot of Qantas staff left and were picked up by TAFE colleges etc to run Travel Agent courses because they were 'experts'. Airline sales [and each country has its own rules] represent only a single product, albeit, a major one.

    Most of these were an abject failure and left students disillusioned and still unemployed as the Qantas staff knew only about Qantas. Fancy learning permaculture from someone whose expertise extended to cabbages and nothing else. To make matters worse the airline industry was heavily regulated and whilst these guys were used to adminstering the rules they also regurlarly broke them to suit themselves.

    Eventually the industry had to establish standards and make the schools comply.

    If you are endeavouring to do this, in respect to professional institutions then most certainly go for it.

    cheers

    floot

    PS...Stick the PDI weblink in your 'signature'. It's a good site and will let the interested know of the debates within permaculture. Prior to this I hadnt known any existed.
     
  14. kathleenmc

    kathleenmc Junior Member

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    Thought I'd add my two cents......

    I did a PDC with John Champagne and David Holgrem in Bega in '04. I loved it so much that I was keen to learn a lot more (especially about design, soils and earthworks). In '05 I did a year long APT course for Cert 4 in permaculture with Robyn Francis in Nimbin. This satisfied my need for extra learning in the field of permaculture. (It was a lot more than food processing!) I wanted to learn design techniques, urban and rural, as well as experience first hand many of the topics that came up in the PDC that just couldn't be taught by only listening to someone with the experience. I felt that the APT course could cover that. The units and modules invovled are extensive and it took the group concerned with APT many years to work it all out. I came away from the course feeling I had learned quite a lot that I needed to know about 'permaculture'. I now run a permaculture consultancy business in landscape design and training. I intend to start up an APT course with John C in the near future as I believe it offers people a chance to actually learn a lot more over a year than in 72 hours. That doesn't mean I think the PDC doesn't have it's place. It does. It fills the need for people who want to know what permaculture is all about and is a great course to find out. But APT came out of people who are teachers of PDC who could see a need for extra learning. It is called Approved Permaculture Training mainly because its approved by the Education Department and people can go on Austudy for the duration of the course. That's a fantastic achievement.

    Cheers Kathleen
     
  15. ho-hum

    ho-hum New Member

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    Correct Kathleen,

    The APT's took permaculture as a subject from the fringes to mainstream. This is a remarkable feat in itself. Anyone who has studied Permaculture knows of its relevance to all of us but to get that message across takes time and the assistance of mainstream education.

    What we need to make sure of is that the 'teachers' are suitably experienced and qualified.

    floot
     
  16. Susan

    Susan Junior Member

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    Permaculture PDC vs APT

    Hi all,
    I am in the process of getting my Diploma from Bill. It has more than two years of putting what I learnt in the 72 hour Course into practise. If I want to continue and become a graduate tearcher using Bill's curriculum I have to submit all lesson plans and resources in just the same way as you do to get a Assessor and Workplace Training Cert IV Qual.
    Through prior learning I hold many of APT's required modules - as I see it competence comes in all sort of ways...and I am in the lucky situation to be part of the Blue Mountains Permaculture Network that brings in Specialist Consultants to do Workshops e.g. Seedsaving; Pruning and Disaster Preparedness.

    I don't think one is better than the other.
    Surely it is not about being ellitist or competitive, but rather designing sustainable ways of saving our planet.
    Greenly
    Sue
     
  17. scooter1962

    scooter1962 Junior Member

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    I don' hold with no book lurnin'.......I jes feed ma chikens and tend ma chores.
     
  18. Susan

    Susan Junior Member

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    Permaculture trade mark

    Oh well Scooter 1962
    From looking at your previous posts - for such an uneducated 'book learnin' guy' you sound like you know a thing or too regardless.

    If I sounded pompus I apologise.
    But I don't see the difference between being seen competent by Bill Mollison's accreditation or APT's accreditation.
    I always thought being competent was me
    'feedin' me chooks and doin' ma chores'
    and then being able to show others how to do the same, if they were interest enough to listen.

    Susan
     
  19. Richard on Maui

    Richard on Maui Junior Member

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    I think its all about what you feed your chickens and how you do your chores.
    Heck, I'm going back to school to get some booklearnin'. Can't beat it!
     
  20. christopher

    christopher Junior Member

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    H Richard,

    As ususal, you made a good, discerning statement. It Is all about what you feed your chickens!

    Onya for going back to school. Where ya going? Whatcha studying? Am thinking the same sort of thoughts about finishing my bachelors degree....

    C
     

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