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    #11
    Senior Member sweetpea's Avatar
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    Okay, I may have stumbled onto the basis for Holzer's chart. Here's a plant taxonomy chart that shows the classifications. This isn't Holzer's. His is bigger and a lot more elaborate. But this one is listing all the plants that he keeps talking about as the foundational plants to include in a food forest. this chart is relating to wheat gluten and how it branches off separately from the other grains, if that's a help to anyone.

    http://wheat.pw.usda.gov/ggpages/topics/tree.jpg
    Last edited by sweetpea; 15-04-2010 at 11:20 PM.
    "Life flows on within you and without you"...George Harrison
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    Coastal California, USA, Mediterranean climate - no summer rain, a little frost mid-winter
     
     

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    #12
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    I am brand spanking to this whole beautiful Idea. Holzer is the man. From what I understand though I might have something new to point out. He uses a mix of forty different seeds, including many flowers, some rare, as well as poisonous plants (to act naturally as pesticides), and also incorporates many broadleaved and needle type trees, I imagine he incorporates shrubs too. The point being that these "families" are important for than just their fixing and absorbing properties. If you cast out 40 of these companionable seeds and only the hearty ones have come up (which I imagine is the case), then you might reconsider that environment and how you must change its micro-climate gradually by imposing first the heartier and heavy fixing plants and then the more delicate vegetables. Also he uses terraces on all his hillsides to eliminate the need for irrigation and fertilization. Another environment he creates is through Hugelkultur, which is basically creating a hospitable growing environment where there would otherwise not be; he creates warm moist nutrient-rich soil by burying mounds of decaying logs and timber and forming rows which are peaked and troughed to create a system where nutrients are fixed and then encouraged to settle into an environment capable of growing fruit trees at high altitudes and temperate climates. The biggest thing he stressed is to learn from nature rather than fight with it. If you are having a problem then somewhere nearby nature has made a point of the solution. Don't work too hard. Great luck with it all!!! I think it is so cool that people are interested in this and taking their food production on themselves! Also I would appreciate anything knows, or has seen or heard about the natives species and the families of Montana. P ea ce
     
     

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    #13
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    found this - may be of use.

    http://www.permies.com/permaculture-...lzer-seed-mix-

    anyone read his new book? considering getting it....
     
     

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    #14
    Senior Member sweetpea's Avatar
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    Hi, Methionine3...yes, Holzer has quite the interesting setup. Where you are might not be that different from Holzer's Alps.

    When you say:

    >> "Also he uses terraces on all his hillsides to eliminate the need for irrigation and fertilization."

    It's not really the terracing that does that. His main feature is the acres of ponds at the top of his mountain that are helping to turn his place into a termperate zone. The thousands of gallons of water seep downhill allowing the ground water levels to be higher and the plant roots can tap into them. He also has summer rain (which I don't) to get the seeds started, and that's irrigation I have to do and he doesn't. Without all that pond water, all of his Hugelkulture mounds, fruit tree survival in the winter, and companion plantings would have quite the different results. His fertilization comes from the Hugelkulture mounds and the nitrogen-fixing plants he grows in his mixes, and letting his chickens and goats on the fields to poop on everything. Have you checked out the YouTube videos on his place?

    I've studied him for a long time, and I was excited to try his methods, but they weren't as straightforward as he makes them see. I am already in a temperate zone, and when I tried Hugelkulture mounds they only created the perfect homes to voles that ate everything in site, and dug shallow tunnels in my clay soil that dried everything out. So unless I have some way to dig into the ground deeply and bury the wood, I'm not going to repeat that disaster.

    Companion planting is somehwat helpful, but I haven't found it to be the answer to most problems. I have found crop rotation to be even more helpful, and it does create a type of "companion remains" in the soil where roots can do an exchange. I march the plantings down the rows in the same order so that next year row 1's heavy feeders will be in row 2's leftover bean nitrogen fixation, or Row 3's cabbage goes into Row 4's onions and dill. Over the years I've managed to plant garlic everywhere, and I never quite get it all, so it's coming up just about everywhere, and seems to be a good overall companion. I imagine Holzer is creating some of the same root exchange remains with his planting mixes.

    I also tried his broadcasting method with seeds, most of them got eaten by birds, mice and voles, but the disarray of everything made me crazy. I couldn't remember that there was lettuce in 15 places, hidden by 3 foot vetches and trailing pumpkins, then take the time to go from place to place to check it, then harvest it at varying times. I just had to keep some order in the plantings, because there is already too much to keep track of!

    this is a nice list for companion plantings:

    http://www.ghorganics.com/page2.html

    It's how Holzer has decided to groups his plant families that still baffles me. I have found a few lists of his specific plants, but it's why he groups them the way he does, why his charts are so different from everyone else's that I am not finding the explanation for. But perhaps as more people find out about him, it will be more available.
    Last edited by sweetpea; 05-04-2011 at 08:38 PM.
    "Life flows on within you and without you"...George Harrison
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    Coastal California, USA, Mediterranean climate - no summer rain, a little frost mid-winter
     
     

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    #15
    Junior Member Excelsior Concordia's Avatar
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    Try to read "Plant sociology: the study of plant communities" by Blanquet Josias.

    It may offer you some valuable answers
    Humans are the only stupid species on Earth!
    Excelsior Concordia
    "I've got a little evidence to support my claim! It just seems to me ... that only a really low IQ population could have taken this beautiful continent and ... Have you taken a good look at it lately? It's embarrassing! Only a nation of unenlightened half-wits could have taken this beautiful place and turn it into what it is today: a shopping mall! A big f*****g shopping mall!"
    George Carlin
     
     

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    #16
    Senior Member sweetpea's Avatar
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    EC, interesting. I looked him up on Wikipedia, and I see what he's done to rename things.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josias_Braun-Blanquet

    I'll see if I can check out the book. Thanks.
    "Life flows on within you and without you"...George Harrison
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    Coastal California, USA, Mediterranean climate - no summer rain, a little frost mid-winter
     
     

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    #17
    Senior Member Pakanohida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sweetpea View Post
    Not sure what you mean. I have Holzer's chart in English, it's like a drawing of roots and his groupings of types of plants that work together. That's easy enough to follow, but I wondered who has actually tried it, and has it made a difference compared to the traditional companion planting groupings.

    Mark, thanks. I can't find a thing on anyone's experience except for what Holzer says.
    Which of his many books? He has 4 in English alone.
    Last edited by Pakanohida; 12-09-2012 at 09:44 AM. Reason: :)
    If you still have a job, get everything in order, and quit. Do it as soon as you can, because we’ve never had a more important work to do. -Kyle Chamberlin

    Permaculture is a concise design of agriculturally productive ecosystems which have diversity, stability, & resilience of natural ecosystems.
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